Item 5 on the agenda is a debate on Stage 4 of the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Bill. I call on the Llywydd to move the motion—Llywydd.

Motion NDM7208 Elin Jones

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, in accordance with Standing Order 26.47:

Approves the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Bill.

Motion moved.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. In introducing this motion today to finally approve the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Bill, I wish to take this opportunity to briefly summarise the Bill’s background and its content.

The Bill has many facets: renaming the Assembly as 'Senedd', changing the franchise, reforming the categories of people who are disqualified from standing for election to the Assembly or from serving as a Member. Today, we will be voting on a Bill that requires at least 40 votes to pass. This is a constitutional Bill, and the powers to create such legislation were only devolved to this Assembly in 2017. This is one of the few occasions in our Senedd when a supermajority is required to pass legislation. The last such occasion was a vote on holding the 2011 referendum on primary law-making powers. In accordance with Standing Order 6.21, the Deputy Presiding Officer and I will have an opportunity to vote on this Bill, and both myself and the Deputy Presiding Officer are likely to exercise that right this afternoon.

Today, we will be voting on extending the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds for the Senedd elections in 2021. It was the Representation of the People Act 1969 that lowered the voting age from 21 to 18, and, so, the provision to extend the franchise to 16-year-olds is long overdue for some. In May 2013, a clear majority of Members of this Senedd voted in favour of lowering the voting age. Ten thousand young people participated in a Commission consultation in 2014 on the voting age. Most of those young people are now in their mid-20s. This is an opportunity to realise their aspirations back then, and to make voting a reality for young people today.

The recommendation to reform the legislation around disqualification arose from the work of the constitutional committee in the fourth Assembly, and the desire to rename the Assembly to reflect our parliamentary responsibilities emanated from a vote by ourselves here back in 2016. The fruit of this work and these decisions are at the root of this legislation today.

I’d like to thank the Laura McAllister expert panel for the work and recommendation on votes at 16 and 17, and I would also like to thank the Assembly committees for their detailed scrutiny of the Bill, which has influenced the Bill before us today. A personal word of thanks for the excellent staffing team who have worked with me on the development of this Bill. We can be confident that the Commission has people of the highest possible quality supporting us as Members on legislative matters. And I'm particularly grateful to the professional and enthusiastic team of staff who worked with me on this legislation. Likewise, to the staff within Government who contributed towards aspects of the Bill too. I would like to thank them.

Now, of course, the Bill we will be voting on today, in November, is different to the Bill that I introduced in February of this year, in many ways. First of all, the Senedd will have a bilingual name—Senedd Cymru and Welsh Parliament. Also, the franchise will include qualifying foreign nationals. Councillors will be disqualified from being Members of the Senedd, and the Electoral Commission will be funded by, and will be accountable to, the Assembly for Welsh elections.

I know that not all political groups are satisfied with all of these elements. The Plaid Cymru group and some other Members, including myself, as it happens, are unhappy with the change to a bilingual name. The Conservative group is satisfied with that change, but is dissatisfied with introducing votes for qualifying foreign nationals. A Bill does evolve over the scrutiny period, and I would ask Members, as they vote, to bear in mind that this Bill is greater than the sum of its parts. It’s a Bill that gives our legislature a name that truly reflects its constitutional status and improves public understanding of the Senedd’s responsibilities. It’s a Bill that also creates a Senedd that is more inclusive, diverse and effective, and that will strengthen our democracy for the twenty-first century.

It’s true that further reform is needed for our Senedd, and that will require further legislation in the near future, I hope. But, for today, let’s take the step to vote to strengthen the foundations of our parliamentary democracy here in Wales.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I say that I'm very disappointed indeed not to be able to vote for the Bill, and indeed to be voting against it actively? And the reason for that is there are very welcome things in the Bill, which the Presiding Officer has outlined. Although we have a free vote on the issue of extending the franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds, it's something I've been very keen to support for many years, and I do believe it's an idea that its time has come, and it would reshape a lot of our political discourse if we did have 16 and 17-year-olds on the electoral register. And it really is quite devastating to me that I'm not going to get the opportunity, for reasons I will outline in a moment, to vote for that really powerful extension of the franchise.

I think it's also important that we recognise this institution as a Senedd, and in English as a Parliament. I think this is a great step forward. Devolution—as, well, lots of people claim to have said it; it may have been Ron Davies—is a process not an event. But we've had a sort of nearly 20-year constitutional convention working out what sort of form of devolution we really wanted. And we started as a sort of county council on stilts—although I have to say our Presiding Officer then made sure that we acted always much more like a proper Assembly. But we have become what I would say is a classic Westminster-model institution, and the name Parliament, or Senedd, is appropriate recognition of that.

I also welcome the Bill because it clarifies and streamlines the rules on disqualification. And Members may recall that I did chair the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee in the fourth Assembly, when that report was drafted.

However, in introducing the right for foreign nationals to vote, this Bill, in our view, becomes unsupportable. It's a major change to a Commission Bill that the Commission did not want. And I do remind people that this novel idea is not common practice anywhere else, as far I'm aware, and it also brings with it the right to stand for this institution, and presumably hold office in it. It's been completely unscrutinised, introduced by the Government without scrutiny, introduced at Stage 2. It's really quite a shocking thing to do on a constitutional Bill that requires, as the Presiding Officer said, a supermajority. It's quite insulting, frankly, to those who have genuine concerns about the lack of scrutiny.

So, the Conservative group, in voting against this Bill, will not be voting against a former Commission Bill, but a Bill that, unfortunately, has been hijacked by the Welsh Government. And I have to say, Presiding Officer, I think you've been singularly badly served by the Government on this occasion.

Today's vote is an important milestone. Twenty years after it was established as an Assembly, with very few powers, we are passing a law today, hopefully, that formally notes the Assembly's flowering into a national Parliament for our country, but that also invites more of our citizens—our young citizens—to be involved in the political and democratic processes that underpin our existence as an institution.

By extending the right to vote to our 16 and 17-year-old citizens, we are showing that we trust our young people, that we are willing to listen to their views, and take their aspirations seriously. I am confident that it will change the way that we communicate our messages with electors generally, and, more than that, change the way in which we make policy and come to decisions about legislation in this place.

It has been a great source of pride for me—and I speak on behalf of all of us, I'm sure—to see how our brand new Youth Parliament has made such an impact in its first year. It's proof, if anyone needed it, that our young people have a huge contribution to make to shaping a world and shaping a future that is, after all, their own.

There are other important elements to this Bill, in relation to the Electoral Commission's work regarding Senedd elections, for example, in respect of eligibility to stand for election. It is a technically important Bill in that regard, as we take responsibility for our own electoral arrangements.

But let me turn now to the other element that has been the subject of much debate over the last few weeks and months, and one that has disappointed me and my fellow Members on these benches greatly in terms of the Welsh Labour Government's approach. I'm talking about the name of this institution.

Let me explain again: I'm not talking about the description. The Bill describes this institution for the first time as a 'Senedd' in Welsh, and a 'Parliament' in English. That's important because we were given the name 'Assembly' to give us inferior status to the new Parliament that opened in Scotland at the same time. You can argue that it doesn't matter, that it isn't the name that's important, but what we do, and of course that’s true. But it is important. People's perception is important and becoming a Senedd, a Parliament, reflects the fact that this is now a vastly different institution—a legislature with taxation powers.

But there was an opportunity here to make another point of principle, to tell the world that this is not just any senedd, not just any parliament, but that we are a distinctly Welsh body. The proposal was to call us a 'Senedd', officially. A name for everyone, a Welsh language name, bilingual in its use. Like so many other words, like our national anthem, a way to show that the Welsh language belongs to everyone, that we are confident in our heritage, united in our future, and that we celebrate what makes us unique as a country.

I and Plaid Cymru are very pleased that we have been able to work with a number of backbench Labour Members on this. But, there we go, we lost, as the Labour Government and the Liberal Democrats voted en bloc to stop that, and voted instead to go for Senedd Cymru/Welsh Parliament.

There was no legal obstacle. All advice confirms that. It was a lack of confidence, perhaps. Was it fear? Fear of what or whom, I'm not sure, given that an opinion poll during the week of the Stage 3 debate showed that the people of Wales supported the name 'Senedd'. A Government that is ready to aim for 1 million Welsh speakers, but, even in this small way, is unwilling to give one platform to the Welsh language that normalises it for all of us in legislation. 

We have won by default, in a way, because in a written answer this week the Counsel General said that the 'Senedd' was the term that the Welsh Government would be using, including in some legislation. 'Aelod o’r Senedd' and 'Member of the Senedd' will be our titles as Members. So, we will be a Senedd.

Yes. 

You know that I'm pretty sympathetic—. Thanks for taking the intervention. You know I'm pretty sympathetic to the name 'Senedd' and I think it's actually a very appropriate name for this Parliament. On the issue of the poll that you just referred to, perhaps on that day the majority of the people who responded did say that they would rather a monolingual name in Welsh rather than English, but the consultation, which the Commission undertook, actually came up with a different result, where many people actually wanted a bilingual name. So, a lot of that depends on the question you ask, doesn't it?

I'll share the question that was asked, and it was a very straightforward question that was asked and it came back with a very straightforward answer too. And I happen to find on many issues that people's choices and people's opinions on very important things do change over time and that the more current we can measure people's opinions the better it is. 

In closing, it is disappointing that the Government has decided that the name 'Senedd' is fine to use on a day-to-day basis, but not good enough to use in the piece of legislation that gives our Parliament its new name. Wales is seeking leadership, and on this issue the Government failed to provide it.

But here in our Senedd this afternoon, we will vote for this Bill. We will vote to celebrate becoming a Senedd in any language, and we will proudly vote to extend the vote to young people, to 16 and 17-year-olds. This is a Senedd for all of the people of Wales, and our young people, more than anyone, are the future of that Wales.

I thought there was an instructive divergence between how the two previous speakers described what the institution was becoming. Rhun referred to our flowering into a national Parliament, while David referred to our becoming a classic Westminster-model institution. In either event, I think it's important that we call ourselves what we are and since we now have primary law-making powers and we have tax-raising powers it is appropriate for our name to develop from the National Assembly for Wales to a Welsh Parliament/Senedd Cymru and we support that.

We oppose the changes in the franchise. However, I would like to say I think a number of Members have made compelling speeches around 16-year-olds having the right to vote. Mine remains open on the issue. Our group is not convinced of the case for that, and we oppose it. However, I will look with great interest as to how schools develop, in education, and the appropriateness of how that's dealt with and how we, as politicians, respond in terms of campaigning and canvassing and involving school students below the age of 18 in our processes. I hope it works well, albeit we are not convinced.

We are also opposed to the issue of prisoners voting. I recognise that Welsh Ministers and, arguably, the Llywydd, as chair of the Commission, as public authorities, have a separate legal obligation in respect of judgments from the European Court of Human Rights, albeit not one that we, as individual Assembly Members, are required to vote for.

Most worryingly, though, as David Melding has very ably set out, is the hijacking of this Commission Bill by the Welsh Government to push forward and use Wales as a test bed, a guinea pig, for a policy announced barely two months ago at the Welsh Labour conference to, according to the conference, at least extend free movement to much of the world and to give pretty immediate voting rights to foreign nationals. The word 'qualifying' foreign nationals is used, but I'm not sure there's much in the way of qualification. It seems to be pretty much all foreign nationals who are resident, or considered to be resident, without a specified qualifying period. I think that is wrong. And the way it has been done has been particularly wrong. It has been done without consultation. It has been done without serious scrutiny. It's been done without reciprocity for people from Wales to vote in any of these countries for which we are giving these voting rights, and I'm not seeing any example of anywhere else in the world where this is done.

I have some sympathy for the Llywydd in terms of how the Bill has been hijacked. However, she and her deputy now face the choice between allowing a Bill, which she has piloted, to fall, or supporting a Bill that includes deeply divisive and highly partisan clauses around foreign national voting. I've spoken before about the importance of the chair being impartial; today's voting record will show if they are.

Thank you. Can I now call the Counsel General and Brexit Minister, Jeremy Miles?

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. In asking Members to vote in favour of this Bill, I would like to start by paying tribute to the Llywydd in her role as Member in charge of the Bill for bringing us to this point. The process of developing the Bill was lengthy and complex and the guidance of the Llywydd has been crucial on that journey, and we are much indebted to her for that.

Secondly, I would like to emphasise that, in many ways, this Bill represents a compromise between very strongly held views. To that end, I'm of the view that it deserves the support of Members in general.

There have been different views expressed on the name of this institution, and Rhun ap Iorwerth mentioned that in his contribution. That issue was discussed at Stage 3 specifically. But through this Bill, we will be giving a title to the institution that is appropriate to its new powers. Those are the powers of a real legislature and parliamentary body. The statutory name reflects the view of the public in the Assembly's Commission’s consultation before the Bill was introduced. Of course, in terms of day-to-day usage, the Welsh Government will use the shorter name, Senedd, and hopes to see others do likewise.

We've also achieved a compromise between competing positions as to how the Electoral Commission should be funded in respect of its work on devolved elections. The Welsh Government is working with the Assembly Commission and the Electoral Commission to ensure that the new arrangements can work effectively, and we will continue to do so. They'll be brought into force once we can be confident of that and these new arrangements represent an important element in the development of devolution.

So far as the provisions relating to disqualification are concerned, I pay tribute to David Melding who chaired the committee in the last Assembly, which recommended that we distinguish between disqualification from candidacy and disqualification from membership of the Senedd. We've pursued that recommendation, although, again, there have been differing views as to exactly how that distinction should be applied in particular instances.

The Bill also provides for extending the Senedd franchise to 16 and 17-year-olds and to qualifying foreign citizens. The Welsh Government has long advocated the involvement of young people in the democratic process, which we believe is essential to achieve a vibrant democracy. Similarly, it is our view that people, regardless of their citizenship, who contribute to the economic and cultural life of our community should be able to have a say in the future of that community, and that is why we brought forward amendments to extend the Senedd franchise to qualifying foreign citizens and were pleased that that attracted support beyond—well beyond—the Welsh Government benches. And, indeed, relating back to the comments that have been made in earlier contributions, Members will remember that, when asked whether all legal residents in Wales should be allowed to vote in Assembly elections regardless of nationality or citizenship, 66 per cent of respondents agreed that they should. There are equivalent provisions on the franchise in the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Bill. We believe it's appropriate that the franchise for all devolved elections in Wales are aligned.

Dirprwy Lywydd, this is an important Bill. I believe it's right that we use the new powers conferred by the Wales Act 2017 to make our democracy more accessible and comprehensible and to open it up to more members of our society. That is what the Bill achieves and, in reiterating my thanks to the Llywydd as Member in charge and, indeed, echoing her thanks to all officials and lawyers who have worked on this Bill, I urge all Members to vote in support of it.

Thank you. Can I now call the Llywydd to reply to the debate?

Thank you, Deputy Llywydd, and just to reply to some of the points raised during that debate. And may I first of all thank the Counsel General for the collaboration throughout the development of this Bill, and may I also recognise the contributions of David Melding and Mark Reckless? And although many Members will vote against the Bill today, I was pleased to hear the Members who did contribute confirm that there are some aspects within this Bill that they, even in voting against it, are in favour of—votes at 16 and 17 in some cases, and the naming of this institution as a Senedd or Parliament at last. So, thank you for putting that on the record.

Also for the record, if I may say, I’m not of the view that this Bill had been hijacked by Government. If I may say, this Chamber voted in favour of changes to the Bill during the scrutiny period, so it was a democratic vote rather than a hijacking, whether you’re happy with the outcome or not.

And in conclusion, therefore, and in accordance with Standing Orders in this Assembly, it will be a pleasure for me to use my rarely exercised right to vote this afternoon in favour of strengthening our Senedd.

Thank you. In accordance with Standing Order 26.50C, a recorded vote must be taken on Stage 4 motions, and Business Committee decided that the vote on this item will take place immediately.

In accordance with section 111A of the Government of Wales Act 2006 and Standing Order 26.50A, I have made a statement relating to protected subject matter and the supermajority requirement of this Bill. As the Bill does contain protected subject matters, the motion requires the support of at least 40 Members for the Bill to be passed. And unless anybody wishes for the bell to be rung, I now want to proceed directly to the vote. So, we open the vote. And close the vote. For Stage 4 41, no abstentions, 19 against. Therefore, the Bill passes.

NDM7208 - Debate: Stage 4 of the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Bill: For: 41, Against: 19, Abstain: 0

Motion has been agreed