Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 7:00 pm on 7 January 2020.
Diolch, Llywydd. I'd like to thank Members for their comments and contributions today. I want this to be the very best piece of legislation, so I really do welcome people's comments and views about how we can make it a better piece of legislation and I look forward to working with Members going forward.
It is very, very difficult to put forward an ethical argument and I think that—. I'm sorry to hear Llyr thought I made heavy work of it, but it is really, really difficult because obviously ethics are a person, they're an individual sort of moral and ethical code, if you like. It's a very, very personal view. But I absolutely knew that we could not do this on welfare grounds. When I looked at—. You know, one of the advantages, if you like, of being the last country to do it, we could look at what's gone on in Scotland, we could look at what's gone on in England, who have taken the same routes, and we considered all options. I really want to assure Members that that was the case. Each legislative route presented risks and opportunities and I was absolutely convinced that we needed to bring forward this legislation. I think it's absolutely the right route for us.
Mike Hedges repeated what I said in committee: I do not want Wales to be a sanctuary for those two circuses. The fact that Scotland has already introduced the ban and England are doing so later this month, that's exactly what could have happened. So, I think, whilst there's no evidence of recent mistreatment of wild animals in travelling circuses, and I want to put that down on the record—. And I know that might be very unpopular with some people who gave evidence. There is not that evidence there. I think there have been two cases, two prosecutions in the last 20 years, so clearly the ethical argument, we believe, is the right way forward.
To Mick Antoniw, I hope I provided the clarity that you sought. I apologise that you did not get the letter from me as early as you would have liked, but I'm pleased to have been able to provide that clarification today.
Several Members raised similar points. David Rowlands asked about the scope—why the scope of the ban doesn't extend to banning wild animals touring with travelling circuses. Well, the objective of this Bill is to prevent the use of wild animals in circuses on ethical grounds. So, if circuses choose to keep their wild animals and use them in a different way, as I said in my opening remarks, that's their prerogative, provided they do it within the law.
Janet Finch-Saunders talked about the future of wild animals. Well, again, because Scotland have already brought forward a ban, and England are introducing one later this month, probably decisions about the future of the wild animals will have already been taken. Janet Finch-Saunders also asked about what if a travelling circus rebranded itself. I think you gave the example as an educational show, for example. The scope of the Bill is specifically about wild animals in travelling circuses and I think it's more appropriate that we regulate the use of wild animals in other settings at this time, rather than look to broaden the scope of the Bill.
Llyr Huws Gruffydd asked about the coming into force date. As I said, I'm very happy to look at it. Certainly the way the Bill progressed—and the UK Government have progressed much quicker than was anticipated and If that happens to us then, yes, I'd be very happy to do so. However, I think we need to look at if the circuses are travelling over the summer, normally the touring is finished by the end of November and that was one of the reasons we thought that 1 December would be the correct date. But, as I've said previously, I'm very happy to consider that.
Janet Finch-Saunders asked why powers of enforcement didn't extend to the police. I don't anticipate that the police will be involved in the enforcement of this legislation. If you think about it, the offence is likely to happen in public and the animal would have to perform or be exhibited, so I think that there are unlikely to be many cases that would then require investigation. But if a police presence was ever necessary then obviously police officers could exercise their existing powers to enter premises to deal with such an offence.
Joyce Watson, I think you're absolutely right about the Petitions Committee. If you think about the plastic bag ban, it's brought forward some fantastic ideas and I do pay tribute, as a couple of people have mentioned, to Linda Joyce-Jones and other campaigners. Certainly, I know if you have a circus in your constituency the postbag increases with people who think we should be bringing forward a ban. Certainly, as Minister, I've received correspondence every time a circus comes into Wales.
Janet Finch-Saunders also asked about the list of animals. I don't think it's practical to put a list of wild animals, or domesticated animals for that matter, on the face of the Bill because, clearly, they could change. So, I think we need to make sure that that's considered elsewhere.
So, I really thank Members for their contributions and very much look forward, I hope with the support of the Chamber, to the general principles going through to the next stage. Thank you.