That was interesting to hear, really, but these contract reforms have been going on in terms of pilots, or general progress, for about three or four years now. Bearing in mind that the change in the contract was about helping people become better at taking care of their own oral health, I would have thought that there might have been a reduced need for Welsh Government spending, not just due to fewer unnecessary appointments, but also fewer treatments for preventable damage.

In 2015-16, the old-style dental care and oral healthcare programmes cost Welsh Government £137 million plus the £33 million revenue from patient charges, which is 2.14 per cent of the NHS spending total. How does that compare now with the spend under this revised contract and what evidence did you get from the Minister to justify the changes?