It also seeks, as I've said, to complement Government policy on the foundational economy. And on page 8, it actually talks about foundational liveability, and it says,

'Success is about whether places work in a liveable way for many types of households. Not whether they are deficient by the GVA measure or lack the accoutrements of stylish middle class living.'

I quite like that, and that is their view of foundational living, which chimes very nicely with the Minister's foundational economy championing. It considers those services that already exist also, which was my criticism of strategic hubs.

But let's be positive—there are some things in the concept that say that these things should connect into anchor towns, and those things are: hospitals and health boards, educational institutions, local government, other public bodies, such as government offices, and housing associations. So, if I look at my constituency, I can see, in Ystrad Mynach, Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr, I can see Coleg y Cymoedd, I can see the Tŷ Penallta council offices, and the Tredomen business offices, I can see housing associations—well, at a stretch, I can see United Welsh, which is on Beddau Way, closer to Caerphilly, but at a stretch you could do that. And also I've added my own little category—sports activities. Because the Newport Gwent Dragons centre of excellence is situated across the road from Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr. So, you've also got this as well. But, the point they make—the point they make—is it only works if these institutions work collaboratively together. And if you speak to anyone in Ystrad Mynach, they would not see the Dragons centre of excellence as a community facility; it is seen as an elite facility, that actually causes more problems for Penallta rugby club than it solves. So, the centre of excellence is seen as an elite training facility, and it's very difficult and expensive for the community to access. So there are ways in which these anchor towns can open up access. In the way we talk about community-focused schools, well why not community-focused public bodies and business bodies as well? We need them to focus on a fair and inclusive economy.

So what about the difficulties? So, there are the positives, here are some of the things I think are difficult about the concept of anchor towns. I think it's based on a previous conception of the Valleys taskforce, which we are moving away from. So what does that mean for strategic thinking? Does that mean that the Minister, therefore, will reject anchor towns? Does that mean, Deputy Minister, that you feel that anchor towns are a concept not worth considering by the Welsh Government, or are there things in there that you would like to use? But it is certainly more in tune with your predecessor's view of what the Valleys taskforce should be—I think—than what you currently see it to be.

By the strictest definition also—here's a parochial criticism—the only real anchor town in my constituency is Ystrad Mynach. Bargoed, Senghenydd, Nelson, and Caerphilly even—Caerphilly at a stretch—would not be categorised as anchor towns. That creates some difficulty if you are concerned about the multiplier effect that might be created by anchor towns. 'Is there a multiplier effect?', is a very good question to ask, because it could be reinforcing advantage. Ystrad Mynach already has all these services; Bargoed doesn't, Senghenydd doesn't. What are we going to do for those communities? This is the same problem I had with strategic hubs. Strategic hubs were developed in communities like Ystrad and Caerphilly, where people want to build houses, where people want to grow businesses. But what about those communities that aren't anchor towns? How are they going to link with those communities? How can a multiplier work beyond the snow line? How can you make that happen? And this is a question I'm asking you, Minister.

My constituency is quite linear—it moves north to south. Does it only work—can anchor towns only work where there is concentricity? Ystrad Mynach is concentric; it's the only concentric town in my community—all the others are linear. Is that part of the reason for their success?

Now, also, we're not talking about creating new towns—we're working with what we've already got. And if we were building new towns, we'd build them like anchor towns, but we aren't; we're working with what we've got, and what we've got maybe isn't conducive to creating that. It requires transport infrastructure and connectivity in order to succeed. Ystrad Mynach has that, but we are a long way from an effective public transport system yet. Just this morning, I was on the train service to Caerphilly. Along with all the other passengers, we had to get off at Caerphilly and get on to a Stagecoach bus, which was very hot and sweaty, and as a result, I missed committee—I didn't get in until 10:38. If I was an hourly paid worker or didn't have an understanding employer, I would have great difficulty. Our transport connectivity is not there yet. Fortunately, the chief whip forgave me today.

And the other thing, of course, is that this requires a big public subsidy—these kinds of transport activities. Currently, Caerphilly council pays £81,000 a year to the bus service to run a bus connecting Blackwood to Ystrad Mynach station, east and west. That is under threat because of local government cuts. And the other thing is that we tend not to look east and west in the Valleys. Merthyr Tydfil is identified in the report as a potential anchor town. Let me tell you, I've only been to Merthyr Tydfil town centre three times in my life, and one of those times was to visit Dawn Bowden. I've not been there. I've been to Cyfarthfa Park—[Interruption.] Well, I'll make a point of going there, seeing as I have recommendations from the floor. I've been to Cyfarthfa Park and I've been to the retail park, but Merthyr Tydfil town centre—I haven't been there. It isn't something we think of in my community. We don't look east and west. I've been to Aberdare a bit more often recently than in the past, but that's more out of necessity.

So, what chimes with this report? I think we must work with how people really live, not with how Welsh Government civil servants think we do, and therefore, it needs to be developed by the people themselves. It needs to be done collaboratively with the Cardiff capital region, working towards a strategic development plan, which itself was undermined, by the way, by the Cardiff congestion charge proposal. We need to work together and collaboratively on it and that is what is failing to happen. 

It demonstrates the valuable role of public services boards. I like that, but, do you know what? At the end of the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee last week, I asked Members of all parties around the table how involved they'd been in public services boards, and we said, 'What's a public services board?' We haven't been involved with them; we haven't been engaged with them. They haven't approached us. Russell George, Bethan Sayed—that's right, isn't it? We haven't. We had that discussion, and therefore, if public services boards are going to play a role, they've got to be up there, doing it, involving us and collaborating. At the moment, I don't see it.

And the other question is the Bevan Foundation make reference to the social partnership Bill, linking public, private and voluntary sectors together for the common good. Great—excellent thing—but what will be the detail of that, Deputy Minister? How will the social partnership Bill enable things like anchor towns to flourish? I don't know; I'd like more detail.

This is a debate, and I've set out a couple of questions. While I'm not completely convinced by the concept of anchor towns, the underlying principles of community collaboration, of co-production and of ground-up principles are something that I support and am very, very much behind. But, Deputy Minister, it's for the Government to answer that question as to how those principles are then enacted in practice. The big question I'm asking as a result of this debate, and as a result of this concept of anchor towns is: where does the ministerial taskforce for the Valleys want to go with this? And perhaps in your peroration, you might answer that question.