So, this was not a back-of-a-fag-packet exercise; there was a lot of work that went into coming up with them. I think Alun Davies has hit upon the nub of the problem with the strategic hubs as I've seen them, which also applies to the anchor towns. It's not the concept that's wrong; community parochialism is the challenge, because how many do you decide upon? When I took over this brief I said to the civil servants, 'Why have we got seven strategic hubs? That seems a lot', and the civil servant replied, 'We were quite pleased we kept it down to seven.' And that's the challenge I've put to the Bevan Foundation in sponsoring this idea because I don't object to the principle, but how are you going to stop—? Maybe if you can decide on three there'd be a force to the argument, but we're never going to decide on three, so is it really worth the grief?

I feel that Alun Davies wants to interject once more.