3. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the EU’s negotiating position during the current trade deal talks? OAQ55133

The EU's draft negotiating mandate largely reflects the political declaration agreed between the UK and the EU in October last year. We, as a Government, set out our position on the political declaration in 'The Future UK/EU Relationship: Negotiating Priorities for Wales' in January of this year.

Thank you for that answer, Minister. It looks like the EU may try to insist that continued subservience to the European Court of Justice is a prerequisite of any trade deal. Do you think that UK courts, or Welsh courts, should our judiciary ever be devolved, should remain subservient to the European Court of Justice when the Brexit transition period ends?

Well, I don't understand the notion of 'subservience'. We have a UK Government at the moment that seems intent on questioning the role of the judiciary in British public life. I think that there are significant risks in fetishising this matter, which is what the UK Government is doing. It is absolutely an area where a more pragmatic approach should be taken. For example, there are many examples of EU-wide governance: the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control is one that might be in the minds of Members, given the circumstances we find ourselves in at the moment, where a degree of European-wide governance, and including, in some cases, the jurisdiction of the court, might be a sensible step to agree in order to protect larger interests.

I think just focusing on just one aspect, as the Member's question does, fails to grapple with the impact that that will have on a number of other areas, touching, for example, on the security of British citizens, which I'm sure all our constituents would take for granted.

I think it's important to understand that the UK Government appears willing to accept level-playing-field provisions of the type that were included in the Canada and South Korea treaties by the EU, and the broad non-regression and the international conventions referenced in those treaties. What the EU is saying, though, is that we should, indeed, be subservient to the EU on an ongoing basis by obeying their rules in these areas, whatever they are, without any democratic input and then have the ECJ determine how those roles are interpreted. Now, does the Welsh Government support the UK position or the EU?

The Member's gift for caricature remains undiminished. That is not the EU's position. What the political declaration said, which both the European Union and the UK Government have signed—have agreed—is that, at the end of the transition period, the standards that apply in both, including in the level-playing-field context, should continue to apply. It is not the case that you can draw a simple parallel with the Canadian free-trade agreement. The UK Government is seeking a zero-tariff, zero-quota agreement. The Canadian agreement is not that—it took seven years to negotiate. It represents a tenth of the trade that the UK does with the European Union, and it's 5,000 km away. There is simply no comparison in trade terms. And to expect the same provisions to be applicable in a deal with your nearest neighbour, with 10 per cent more trade, as you impose on a much less significant, in volume terms, trading partner on the other side of the world, I think, is just fanciful.

Counsel General, clearly, yesterday, the general council confirmed the EU's negotiating mandate—[Inaudible.] It is slightly harsher than the original draft, indicating clearly strong views on this level playing field. Tomorrow, we will see the UK Government's opening gambit, because we're yet to actually have that clearly defined. But what's important is actually the economy of Wales and how we ensure that the economy of Wales is not damaged by future EU-UK negotiations. 

Now, in that sense, what discussions is the Welsh Government having with the EU side of things to ensure that its position—its economy and the issues important to Wales—are being reflected and discussed in Europe, as well as in the UK? Because very often, we know that in the UK—. And we know Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings—they just put their own view forward; they don't even put the view of other parts of their party forward. Will you ensure that the Welsh position is put forward in all sides and all avenues so that we can get a fair share of this?

Well, we continue to do that. The Minister for international relations was in Brussels recently, the First Minister will be there shortly. We take every opportunity of making sure that what is in the interests of the Welsh economy is understood by any of our interlocutors.

But what I will say to the Member, though, is that in this period of the negotiations ahead, the parties to that negotiation will be the European institutions and the British Government. There is no parallel set of negotiations or discussions that the Welsh Government can or should have in that context. Our expectation, our vision, of how this should work in practical terms is that the UK Government should agree for the devolved Governments to have a role in those negotiations in setting a UK-wide position in relation to those matters that are devolved.

As he will know, that is not a principle that the UK Government has yet agreed in a way that we think is acceptable. The capacity of the Welsh Government to reflect the interests of Wales, and to reflect the devolved competences of this institution and the Welsh Government, is something that must be recognised by the UK Government in order to protect the interests of Wales through that period.