5. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with the UK Government on future immigration policy post-Brexit? OAQ55131

6. What recent discussions has the Counsel General had with the UK Government regarding immigration policy following the UK's withdrawal from the EU? OAQ55111

Llywydd, I believe that you have given your consent to this question being grouped with question 6.

I was disappointed that the UK Government didn't share their proposals with us before they were announced to the media. Whilst immigration is not, of course, devolved, future migration policy is of profound importance and will have significant impacts on our economy and our communities. Reform must take into account the needs of Wales.

I thank the Minister for that reply. Is he aware that immigration—net migration—has averaged 330,000 a year since 2014? Would he agree with me that we do not need to add to the UK population a city the size of Cardiff every single year from immigration alone in order to plug gaps in health and social care, to revert to his earlier answer? The Labour Party at its last conference in 2019 voted for a series of motions that effectively commits his party to open-door immigration, and the effective end of all immigration control. Does that explain, perhaps, Labour's dismal result in the recent general election? Because they're obviously completely out of touch with the views of most ordinary people on this subject, and the fact that Plaid Cymru shares this view shows that two thirds of the Members of this place are therefore out of touch with ordinary people in Wales. Is that not yet another reason why the reputation of this institution falls year in, year out?

I'm sure none of those are rhetorical questions, but just to be clear, I would expect the Member to support a migration policy that that stands up and reflects the interests of the people of Wales and the public services of Wales, and the economies and employers of Wales. That is not, I'm afraid, what the most recent proposals from the UK Government have done. They certainly don't reflect the needs of the workforce or of public services here in Wales, and whatever people may have voted for in the past, I do not think they were voting to make Welsh public services less resilient, and to make it harder for Welsh businesses to grow and employ people.

Huw Irranca-Davies.

Diolch, Llywydd. Can I just check—do I need to read my question or—

No, you don't. You just ask a question. 

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Minister, there's been real and understandable anger at the crude label of 'low skilled' that the UK Government has now levelled at people such as social workers, when we know that they're not low skilled, they are low paid, and you simply cannot put a value on the precious human qualities of compassion and care. How would he respond to Dr Moira Fraser-Pearce, the director of policy at Macmillan Cancer Support, who has written saying

'The Government's plan for a points-based immigration system paints a concerning picture for a health and care system already under record pressure...The Government must create a separate migration route for social care as well as clarifying what specific measures will be put in place to protect the NHS workforce to ensure that people with cancer get the right support when they need it. Any immigration reform', she says,

'that prevents social care workers from working in the UK could mean that some of the most vulnerable people, including those living with cancer, suffer the consequences'.

How would he respond to that, and what representations will he be making to the UK Government?

Well, I think he describes in a very vivid way some of the very real pressures and challenges and impacts that people in Wales will suffer, and I think his question is a retort to the question Neil Hamilton that raised earlier. I agree with him, as he will have heard me say to Dai Lloyd earlier, that people working in the care sector, particularly, perhaps, in the way that he has described today, do work of very great skill, and we have advocated a position in Wales for a migration policy that reflects the different skill sets and a different salary level in order for that to work in the interests of public services in Wales, but also the people of Wales, who need the kind of support that he's describing. It is the case that there are many thousands of people from the European Union working in our care sector either as providers of care or nurses in different settings. We want them to stay and continue providing those services, but we also don't want to put artificial barriers in the way of more people coming to take their place to fulfil what is a very real need.