You anticipate my point, Mr George. I was trying to get to the point that this is a difficult question. It's not just car versus train versus whatever. We have roads that are in a dangerous state of repair, which don't at the moment have sufficient capacity to deal with the congestion that we've created for a number of reasons, and which are not designed to prioritise public transport. We should be looking with new roads, when they are brand-new, to design in that attractive active travel alternative that connects communities economically as well as socially, but that can't be true for every road, including the one that I use in the morning.

Green transport—well, trams share road space with motor vehicles, and whether it's green public transport or whether it's hydrogen taxis—let's have those as well—they will still use roads. And that's what this debate is about—raising a serious question about the present and future purpose of roads, as posited in the first two points of our motion. So, it's not a return to the 1980s.

Major roads are nearly always controversial, despite being the subject of compromise so often. Compromise may be driven by often unrealised cost savings, and it seems to me that neither of our Governments has the best of stories to tell on the cost of strategic infrastructure. But the difference between the work on the A465 and HS2 is that the former has been a point of reference in my life since, pretty much, I left university. Only the Sagrada Familia is taking longer to finish, and actually poor delivery on this strategic infrastructure is just as much against the principles of the future generations Act as plastering the country in concrete.

Compromise can be a lost opportunity as well. There are reasons why the distributor road south of Port Talbot is not a replacement for the elevated section of the M4—that would never have been built today—but reduced speed limits on this stretch just move congestion up the road to Llandarcy. The biggest increases in traffic in my region are at the five junctions west of Port Talbot. Experiments with junction 41—these are no adverts to those that we seek to attract into the city region, not least Milford Haven, nor those we seek to persuade to maintain a south Wales land bridge for trade between Ireland and the rest of the EU.

Just to finish, Dirprwy Lywydd, whatever this costs the economy, it's making a mockery of all our local development plans as well. The biggest rise in volume of traffic in my region is at junction 47 near Penllergaer, jumping 78 per cent in the last 17 years, and guess where the LDP is planning to build the majority of its housing estates?

Minister, in your response I really hope you will respond to this debate for what it is—a sincere appeal for some strategic thinking on our infrastructure, badly needed to level Wales up.