Llywydd, I wasn't planning to speak, but having listened to the contributions I thought that I should. One of the issues that is never addressed by those people who want to see abolition is what it means for the rest of the UK, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and why it is that Wales, apparently alone, should not have its own voice. Why is it that Wales alone—compare us to Scotland, Northern Ireland, England, the Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey, take your pick, Gibraltar—shouldn't have its own legal jurisdiction? Why is it that in two years' time it will be possible to be arrested for an offence in England that isn't an offence in England? Namely, if you hit a child, you cannot use the defence of reasonable chastisement. It will be possible to be arrested in Newcastle for an offence that isn't an offence in Newcastle. That is legal nonsense. It's nonsense. It doesn't make any sense at all. And the issue with jurisdiction is not as radical as people think. It's normal, actually. This is the abnormal situation where a Parliament does not have a jurisdiction.

I listened to Mark Reckless's arguments. He made them at an event we both attended in Newcastle. I have to remind him that we did not seek income tax varying powers. They were imposed on us, effectively, by a Conservative Government. That's what happened. So it's not as if we deceived the people of Wales in 2011. It was decided by a Conservative Government that we needed—and I don't necessarily disagree with the logic—to have revenue-raising powers in order to be able to borrow. But it wasn't something that we particularly sought, because Northern Ireland didn't have revenue-raising powers, but did have the ability to borrow.

Do I think Wales should be on a par with Scotland and Northern Ireland? Yes, I do. And I heard him on Saturday say with pride that his grandfather was a Fianna Fáil TD, so, a member of the anti-treaty forces in the Irish civil war. But is that not a lesson for us? That if Irish home rule had been granted—and the first world war intervened, we know that—then Ireland might not be independent today. It was the intransigence of the Westminster system that led to the slicing off of one part of the UK back in 1921, because the UK, remember, is not even 100 years old with its current boundaries. My argument would be—and I listen to what he says about where does this end, devolution is a process not an event, where does it end—for me, it ends with a structure that makes everything clear. There are others in the Chamber who want independence. I don't seek that; for me, it's four territories with their own powers and, call it what you want, a federal parliament at the top.

It doesn't mean more politicians. You don't need 600 MPs in a federal parliament. The UK Government delivers very, very few services across the whole of the UK, very few: border control, currency, fiscal policy, and that is pretty much it. Even vehicle licensing is devolved in Northern Ireland, and that's not done by—. [Interruption.] Sorry? Defence. I knew I'd missed one out. I'm not looking for the devolution of defence. And so, that's something we need to consider. You wouldn't need to have a large UK Parliament in order to scrutinise a UK Government in those circumstances.

And I have to say, this idea that it's an institution's fault—. Now, it's perfectly democratic, of course, for others in this Chamber to criticise the Welsh Government. I don't agree with what they've said, but this is what the Chamber is for, to have that kind of debate, and if this Chamber wasn't here, there wouldn't be that debate. In fact, none of us in this Chamber wouldn't have a voice. There'd be no debate at all. And that's something we have to remember because I could argue that in the 1980s Westminster was a malevolent force in Wales. It destroyed the coal industry. It destroyed the steel industry. I could argue, 'Well, the problem is Westminster, let's abolish Westminster.' Equally, you could argue that the problem is democracy: 'Let's get rid of democracy because the problem is in Wales, people vote for the wrong parties.' And it's not fair that the centre right—well, he calls himself the centre right, Neil Hamilton—in Wales don't have a voice. Win some elections.

I'm not going to stand here and apologise for the fact that my party has been successful for the past 20 years. I know it gets more difficult with every election—of course, it does. People say, 'Well, you've been in power a long time', and I know that that's something that you have to work hard to combat. But to say people in Wales are effectively too stupid to vote for the right kind of politics is a reason to abolish the institution that they themselves created in 1997, and they themselves in 2011 decided by a majority of nearly two to one—and it would have been higher if the opinion polls hadn't shown it was going to be a clear victory. They decided by two to one in 2011, a mere nine years ago, that we should have primary powers here in Wales. It was clear what people voted for and people did it as a matter of pride and there was a cross-party campaign, in fairness, that supported that.

And finally, I'll simply say this: you cannot pretend, as I said earlier, to be any kind of nation if you have no political structure, especially in a country like the UK where there'd be a Scottish Parliament, a Northern Ireland Assembly, Manchester, London, Westminster Parliament and Wales would have nothing. Even Cornwall has a county council. And the idea that somehow Welsh MPs are so devoid of work that they could actually scrutinise a Welsh mayor—the only way I can describe it—I just find that fanciful. I'm sure that they are overwhelmed with work as it is. And of course, it fails to address the question: does that mean then that the 40 Welsh MPs could instigate their own legislation? Because if that's not the case, then that directly goes against the referendum result in 2011 when the people of Wales decided by a hefty majority that this was the place where primary legislation would be drafted and passed in devolved areas.

I've gone on for longer than I wanted to, Llywydd, but surely the time has come across the whole of the UK for a stable constitutional settlement that's in everyone's interest.