I think there are two points there: one is the point about how the health board is constituted and then the make-up of the board and clinicians making up the majority. In terms of how the health board is constituted, if there's a broader point about its organisation and the scale of it, I actually think that for north Wales to improve, to try to undertake a structural reorganisation in order to change to have not one Betsi but two I think would be a mistake. If we did that, we would definitely lose a significant period of time while people look inwards about who's going to run those new organisations—i.e. decouple—then what you do about the fact that there are three hospitals across north Wales. Where does the middle one go? What does that mean in terms of service planning and co-operation, both within the same health board now but, potentially, in more than one organisation? So, I'm not persuaded that more than one organisation in north Wales is the answer.

In terms of your point about the structure, when it comes to the independent membership around the board table, we have deliberately, over time, constituted a mix of executive members, people who work for the health board as employees and independent members with the mix of skills that people require. It certainly doesn't always follow that people who have been clinicians in the health service make good managers of the health service, and we'll see that in all walks of life. I was a lawyer—I had some skills as a leader and a manager. My wife, who is still a lawyer, was a better manager than me, in terms of some parts of the role, but that had not really much to do with our ability as lawyers. So, it's about how your professional background lead you into the choices that an organisation makes, because, actually, someone who was a great doctor isn't necessarily the right person to run the finance function. Someone who has been a great nurse through their whole career isn't necessarily the right person to sit around the board table as an independent member. That's why we have an independent public appointments process, overseen by the public appointments commissioner, to try to make sure we get the right people.

It's also why we've reset our expectations about the way that independent members are not just appointed, but how they behave and their willingness to not just support the organisation, which is only part of their role, but it's about the scrutiny and the challenge and the leadership role they have around the independent members' table. And, actually, within north Wales, with the relatively new chair—he's only a couple of years or so into the role—he has brought a different leadership style and a different level of scrutiny that's changed the culture of independent members around the table, and all of our independent objective assessment, including the inspectorate, say that has made a real and positive difference. The challenge is going from that to real, definable improvement in accordance with the special measures framework that I set out for Members recently.