Item 11 on our agenda this afternoon is the Plaid Cymru debate on coverage of the six nations. I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move the motion. Rhun. 

Motion NDM7297 Siân Gwenllian

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Notes the importance of sport of all kinds to cultural and civic identity in Wales.

2. Believes that the ability to enjoy sports should be as accessible as possible to the widest range of our nation's population.

3. Is concerned about reports that coverage of the six nations rugby matches will only be available to view on a pay-per-view basis in the future.

4. Believes that access to national rugby coverage is key to ensuring that young people participate in grass roots rugby.

5. Believes that the coverage of Wales six nations rugby games should continue to be available for all to view for free and calls on the Welsh Government to do everything in its ability to achieve this.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I’m pleased to be able to move this motion today. It is presented and written in a way that we hoped would have been able to attract cross-party support, quite similar to the last debate. I do understand that the Government is intending to support our motion as well, so we have an opportunity today to make a united statement as a Senedd as to how important the six nations are to us as a country.

The motion says it all: sport is important to our cultural and civic identity in Wales; we need to make sport as accessible as possible; we are concerned about the reports that Wales might have to pay for six nations games in the future; and we are concerned about the impact that that could have on the interest of young people in the game.

Rugby is very important to me personally, as it is to many of us. I’m very proud to play for the Senedd rugby team, and we’re in the middle of our own six nations championship at present and we’re unbeaten in that. I’m still a part of the coaching team in Llangefni Rugby Club youth section, and I get great pleasure in teaching the game to young boys and girls, but I also appreciate the role that the club plays within the community. We are going through a very prosperous period in the club in Llangefni at the moment. There are literally hundreds of players in the youth section at the moment and it is great to see; there is no room for us in the club at present. It’s great to see women’s and men’s rugby growing in Holyhead too, and the club in Porthaethwy is still very important.

But what creates or what generates that interest, particularly among young people? Well, without a doubt, the ability to watch and look up to and wanting to emulate their heroes, whether they are men or women. As it happens, I asked the boys on Sunday morning in the team that I help to coach—the under-16s—I asked them how many of them watch international rugby in Wales. All of them said that they watched—the majority of them wearing Wales shirts and so forth. I asked how many watch club games regularly, either on tv or watching our own first team in Llangefni. Well, very few of them were doing that. I wasn’t very happy about that, but that’s another problem. But that response told me that it was through watching the men’s national team, for these boys—watching Alun Wyn Jones, Dan Biggar, Leigh Halfpenny and George North, of course, for us in Anglesey particularly—that’s where the interest is generated. The same thing is true, as I said, in terms of the way in which coverage of the women’s team generates interest among young girls as well.

I’m very concerned therefore what would happen if those games couldn’t be an intrinsic part and a natural part of our cultural life by being broadcast on free-to-air tv. I’ve never had Sky tv in my house—that’s my own personal choice—and many people can’t afford Sky tv or can’t afford to pay to watch sport. Going to a pub or another location doesn’t work for everyone either. [Interruption.] Yes. 

I'll be voting for the motion this afternoon, and I have huge sympathy for the merits of this motion. I, like you, don't have Sky tv whatsoever and never have had that, but the financial model of the Welsh Rugby Union is predicated on international rugby. If they can't bring the revenues in, what's the alternative to make sure that the grass-roots game and the professional game in Wales can have those revenues to be competitive? 

These are core questions. Cricket has been through a period of looking at itself and how it pays for itself, and look what's happened to audiences for cricket. I'll quote from the author Gideon Haigh, who asked, 

'Does cricket make money in order to exist, or does it exist to make money?' 

It's always about finding the balance. 

I’ll continue. Going to a pub isn’t always an option for everyone, and certainly not for young people, for example. It’s not for people with mobility problems and people who don’t want to be in big crowds of people. Yes, in rugby clubs around Wales we do show the game and we can carry on doing that, but that’s for people who already have an interest in the game.

We, as a party, have written to the Secretary of State for DCMS in the UK Government, arguing the case for adding the six nations to the category A events that have to be shown on free-to-air tv. There was a review in 2009. That was the last review of that, and it came to this conclusion:

'Wales matches in the Six Nations Rugby Championship should be listed in Wales only…The Panel was persuaded of the "special national resonance" of rugby union in Wales.'

And we only need to look at the viewing figures, not just for specific games, but how many people generally who watch six nations games—82 per cent of the population of Wales. That figure is astonishing, and it does show how much this game is integrated in our specific culture in Wales.

I could talk about another specifically Welsh issue—the threat to Welsh language broadcasting of the games. What would happen to those in the future. Broadcasting has been a part of the lexicon of rugby in Wales over the years and we can't afford to lose that.

As I said earlier, cricket has been through this experience, and we can't afford to see ourselves in a situation where we would lose that access for people to a game that's so important to us.

I love sport. I love taking part in sport and watching it. I love following and watching our national football and rugby teams. We in Wales love our sport. It permeates deep into our national psyche, our culture. Football—Euro 2016 was a wonderful experience, and I look forward to many similar experiences through football again. But as an annual competition, there's something about the six nations that really binds us like nothing else—that amazing figure of 82 per cent of people watching it. And take access to it on free-to-air tv away from the population, you rip away not just a television programme, but a core part of our nation's culture, and you threaten directly the health of rugby as a participation sport. So, let's vote together on this today, and make a clear and unambiguous statement as our national Parliament.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. There are few issues that actually do conjoin us with our different politics in this place. So, this is an important debate for the people that we all represent to have here in this Welsh Parliament. And as has been said, here in Wales, rugby is so much more than just a game. Six nations matches are etched in our national psyche. They are part of who we are, and part of our shared Welshness. And in clubhouses, pubs and living rooms across the nation, people gather to watch the six nations in a way unlike almost any other sporting event in Wales. And it is greater than its subject matter, so it is absolutely vital that we do keep this highlight of the Welsh sporting calendar accessible to the majority.

We need only to look at the example of cricket, as has already been mentioned, which has seen a substantial drop in participation and viewing figures since moving to pay-per-view services in 2005. And this is not to discredit for-profit channels such as Sky or BT, which have, over a number of years, provided some very high-quality rugby coverage. But the fact is that these are simply not accessible for the same number of people in Wales.

When Wales claimed a grand slam victory over England last year, 8.9 million people viewed this on BBC One. That is more than the most-watched football match on the BBC in 2018-19. This should signal how important it is to keep these games on free-to-air tv. It is also a signal as to why others want it.

I wish to take this opportunity to promote the women's six nations, which will now be unified with the men's tournament in terms of television rights. As the women's game continues to grow in participation, ensuring greater, not lesser television coverage is a vital next step. Unfortunately, this weekend's Wales women's fixture against Scotland has been called off due to the coronavirus affecting one of the Scottish players, and I'm sure members across this Chamber would like to join me in wishing her a full and speedy recovery.

Dirprwy Lywydd, if we are to ensure that the next generation are inspired to play and support rugby, we must keep it accessible to them. The six nations is enjoyed by avid rugby fans and social observers alike. This will not be the case if it disappears behind a pay wall. In Wales rugby has always been a sport for everyone, not just a privileged few, and we must all work together to keep it that way.

'I was there',

said Max Boyce. Well, we can't all be there, can we? And so it's important that we all have an opportunity, through television, to share in that experience. I remember where I was when Ieuan Evans scored that excellent try in 1988 against Scotland. I'm sure we all remember where we were when Scott Gibbs scored in Wembley in 1999, or when Gavin Henson kicked that wonderful kick to beat England in 2005. It's part of our national memory, isn't it, it's part of our heritage, and it's part of our culture.

People say, 'Well, go to the pub to watch the game. If we have to pay, you can watch it in the pub.' But that doesn’t work for everyone, as we've already heard. My children couldn’t have watched Wales play England on Saturday if we'd had to go to the pub to watch the game. And neither would they have spent hours in the garden playing rugby, emulating Dan Biggar and Hadleigh Parkes, with me with a little white tape on my ears trying to look like Alun Wyn Jones. And I'm surprisingly similar, if truth be told. [Laughter.]

But six nations matches are national treasures, and they should be safeguarded. If it's good enough for the Grand National, then surely it's good enough for Wales rugby matches in the six nations. We've heard reference to cricket, and the experience that cricket has been through over the past few years. Well, 9 million watched Freddie Flintoff and the team in the Ashes matches back in 2005—9 million people. But soon after that, cricket went behind a paywall, and people had to pay to watch those games. By the world cup, there was barely a million. Indeed, it was 0.5 million people watching some of the England games in the world cup. And when it came to the finals, Sky decided that they had to show it free of charge on Channel 4, and even then, only 4.5 million people watched. So, that was a decline of half the audience in 15 years watching the England cricket team. Now, that's an admission of failure that they had to broadcast on Channel 4. And in the same summer, of course, there were still almost 10 million people watching Wimbledon, free to air. Over 8 million people watched the England women's football team in the world cup at the same time.

We've heard already that the income of selling broadcasting rights to invest in the game at the grass-roots level would make up, perhaps, for the audience loss. Well, participation figures in cricket show now that those playing cricket regularly has almost halved in the last two decades, which corresponds to that period that I mentioned earlier, of course, when it hasn't been available free to air. Now, that isn't the future we want for rugby in Wales, and that isn't the future that Plaid Cymru wants for rugby in Wales. And that is why we are eager to see everyone supporting our motion today, to ensure that everyone, whoever they are, in Wales can access and share in the celebrations, hopefully, every time that Wales plays a game in the six nations championship.

I think this is an important debate, and we in the Welsh Conservative group will be enthusiastically supporting the motion.

Can I start by paying tribute to Peter Jackson, the highly respected journalist who first wrote about this story, in The Rugby Paper—it's not a very original title, but it was a very important story. [Interruption.] And it's a good paper, indeed. I think the key point here is the exclusion of joint bids. The BBC and ITV seem to be getting ready to make another joint bid, and a very valuable bid; of course, they outbid in the last round. But no reason has been given by Six Nations Rugby Ltd for the approach of now excluding joint bids. And it does seem to me that this is anti-competitive. There's also a remarkably quick timescale to these negotiations—they end this week. And it does smack of the whole process being forced and controlled.

We've already heard from a couple of speakers now that there is a real risk of losing millions of viewers behind a paywall, to generate millions of extra revenue. But what do you gain with that extra revenue if you've lost your grassroots, and the love of the game that is shared by so many in the population? And this seems to me something that really has to be reflected on.

Can I welcome the action of the Westminster committee on digital, culture media and sport, and their demand from Six Nations Rugby for an explanation of this situation? And the chair of that committee, Julian Knight, said, and I quote:

'We cannot allow this to be a deal done behind closed doors. Fans have a stake in this and a right to know what's going on.'

And I completely agree. There is something not right about this in the way its governance is being conducted. And this game is of huge importance culturally to us in Wales—it's a mass sport in Wales; it's not so much in England or in France, indeed. And I do believe that it's England and France that are driving this process and they, I think, will bitterly rue the day that they did that.

But I think that if the rugby authorities do act unreasonably, then the Government should consider making six nations rugby matches in the UK listed events. And I would say to the UK Government that there are some actions you must take to strengthen the union, and this will be one of them, recognising the strength of rugby in Wales, and therefore we must have a national, i.e. a UK approach to this regulation. Thank you.

I'm pleased to be taking part in this debate, albeit not for very long—obviously the time does not allow me to wax lyrical about my own somewhat less-than-dazzling rugby-playing career back in the day on the wing—left wing, obviously. [Laughter.] But, obviously, prior to devolution, the Wales rugby team, the Wales football team, and the National Museum Wales—it was sport and culture that gave us a political identity in the absence of politics in this place. So, prior to devolution, the Wales rugby team was supremely important, particularly in that glorious decade in the seventies when we were very successful as well—amazingly successful on the sporting field, not quite so successful in the political field in that century. But it has allowed us to define ourselves as a nation, even before we could politically in this place. And it is a grass-roots sport. 

I'm a member of Dunvant Rugby Football Club—I might as well give them a mention—and they run loads of age-representative teams from under-eights upwards: boys and girls. It operates like a youth club, basically. It is volunteer-based. It doesn't get much funding from the Welsh Rugby Union or anybody else. Volunteers locally and families together club together—it keeps children occupied. It occasionally wins rugby matches as well at the higher level. But, yes, it's under threat, if anything like this happens.

Television has given rugby that coverage; it's also given the women's game that coverage. Women's rugby in Wales is now on television and we've seen women's rugby take off at a grass-roots level. Siwan Lillicrap, the Welsh rugby captain, is from Swansea—I'm guaranteed to give her a mention.

But I wear a Glamorgan cricket tie because I'm a bit of a cricket freak as well, but what we've seen in the last 15 years is, as we've heard, a 30 per cent decrease in grass-roots playing numbers in cricket. We've seen village cricket teams here in south Wales, which traditionally supply Glamorgan County Cricket Club team with players—we've seen that supply dry up and those cricket teams disappear. And, yes, there's supposed to be lots of money at the top end—it doesn't help our village cricket teams here in south Wales. So, yes, there is a special national resonance for rugby in Wales—that's why we need to keep it on terrestrial television. Diolch yn fawr.

Can I thank Plaid Cymru for bringing this important debate this afternoon? We will be supporting all of Plaid's motion.

Rugby is the national game of Wales and unlike England, where much is based on its public school system, it is a sport of the working classes and it is a grass-roots sport in Wales. 

If the BBC is to be a true public service operator, it is incumbent upon the institution to retain certain sporting events for the general population. We should note here that it's taken steps to retain Wimbledon, the boat race, a share with BT of the FA Cup and other institutional gaming events. The BBC licence fee raises £3.7 billion annually, but is supplemented by another £1.2 billion raised from its commercial operations. So, that's a total of £5 billion annually. It is reported that the rights bid for the six nations tournament is around £50 million, or—if I'm not to be wrong, as Diane Abbott might have been, that's just 1 per cent of the BBC's annual revenue. But as of now—. This cost, of course, was shared with ITV. But, as has been pointed out by David Melding, that may not be allowed in the next bid phase.

So, whilst we have to accept that there are many other programmes—and I use that in the broadest sense of the word—the popularity of the six nations is witnessed by the fact that 41 per cent of the UK watches the tournament, and, as Rhun pointed out before, that figure rises to something like 82 per cent in Wales. So, the six nations tournament is one of the most anticipated and watched events in the sporting calendar. Indeed, for Wales, it is probably the most popular event. The loss of the Pro14 championship to pay television undoubtedly impacted on the watched coverage of that competition.

Being exposed to sport through all media, as has been pointed out, is the best way to inspire young people to engage in playing that sport, and, as Dai Lloyd mentioned, we can see that in the fact of the numbers of women now playing rugby because of the exposure on television. So, Dirprwy Lywydd, we call upon this whole institution, led by the Welsh Government, to use every lever available to influence the BBC to retain the six nations tournament for terrestrial television.

Thank you. Can I now call on the Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism, Dafydd Elis-Thomas?

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’m pleased to confirm that we as a Government will be supporting this motion, and I therefore expect the support to be unanimous, as all contributions have been.

You will recall that we had a topical question and I responded to that as robustly as I could last week. I won’t rehearse anything that I said last week, but I do want to inform you of what I’ve been doing in the meantime, namely that I have written to the UK Government, not only to convey the feelings and views of this Chamber, but I’ve also sent a digital version of our Record of Proceedings so that the Secretary of State can read something from a Parliament that is worth reading—this Parliament as opposed to the Parliament that he’s a Member of, perhaps. And I’ve also sent a copy to my colleague, Gareth Davies, the chair of the Welsh Rugby Union. I haven’t yet received responses.

But the fact that we, once again today, for the second week on the trot, are discussing this issue—and I am grateful to my colleagues in Plaid Cymru for tabling this motion and I will be doing something similar after this debate to ensure that, once again, the UK Government is aware of the views of this Parliament and that they do consider what should happen in terms of the listing. The fact that we have seen cross-party support from Plaid Cymru, the Conservatives and, of course, from David Rowlands—thank you to you, David, from the Brexit Party—and quite a serious contribution from Andrew R.T. Davies, as well as David Melding from the Conservative side—.

The only word of warning that I would give in agreeing with everything that’s been said in this debate is that this question is not going away. The funding for international rugby, working on a commercial or partly commercial basis, is going to be an issue that we will have to find a solution to, both in Welsh rugby and international rugby, and we who are unhappy about the solution that’s been put forward to date are duty bound to see what kind of solution could be acceptable to us. So, I have one other invitation to make to this Senedd, as I invited the Senedd last week: it would be most useful if one of the committees of this Senedd were willing to consider this issue further, to call for evidence and produce a—

Thank you very much for taking the intervention. We, in the committee that I’m chairing instead of Bethan, are intending to make comments on the subject before us today, but we will certainly consider the points that you’re making about looking at the subject in its entirety, if that’s appropriate, because, as you said, this problem is not going to go away, even if we are successful in this campaign to keep the six nations on free-to-air.

Thank you very much for that. On the basis of that pledge, you will know how much I enjoy appearing before your committee, particularly under you as Chair, perhaps. So, thank you for that invitation. I’m pleased to confirm and ask everyone to support this motion today. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Can I now call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to reply to the debate?

Thank you very much. There’s not much else to say, in all truth, but thank you very much, everyone, for your comments, and thank you for the support that you will be giving today. I’m very grateful for the commitment by the Minister that he will send a copy of the Record of Proceedings of this meeting, and the unanimous vote, hopefully, to the UK Government, as well as to the WRU.

In terms of the point about the problem not going away, there is a solution here, namely to allow, for example, for more than one free-to-air tv company to do a joint bid, which would bring matched funding, possibly, in order to ensure that the source of funding would continue to flow. But I also welcome greatly the commitment to look more deeply at this issue within the Senedd.

We’ve had a test of what would happen, in truth, when the England home games went to Sky back in 2001-02. There were half a million people watching Wales against England at Twickenham and then, the next year, on free-to-air, Wales against England at the Millennium Stadium, 6 million people were watching. It would be detrimental to the game if we lost those figures.

I close with a quote from Alun Ffred Jones, as the culture Minister in 2009, who gave evidence to the review on which sports should be on free-to-air tv. This is what he said:  

'The public is the most important part of the jigsaw when it comes to viewing rights. We must act in the best interests of the people of Wales.'

Amen to that. Let’s vote unanimously on this.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] You object. Right. Thank you. 

Voting deferred until voting time.