14. Debate: Legislative Consent Motion on the Coronavirus Bill

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 1:35 pm on 24 March 2020.

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Photo of Vaughan Gething Vaughan Gething Labour 1:35, 24 March 2020

The one note of caution I'd give in regard to some other responses provided to other Members is that, first of all, it’s then for this institution to decide how it wants to use that report in terms of scrutiny or otherwise. And the second point is that, in terms of how the institution functions, not just in terms of reduced numbers, but we'll all need to have in our own minds that we may be in a different position in three months, six months or nine months, and just to be aware that we can't give absolute hard and fast guarantees about what definitely will happen. But, certainly there, from the Government's point of view, the reporting undertaken, I'm more then happy to provide.

In Paul Davies's comments, on the points about the safeguards, professional regulators will still be in place, but the standards they apply will have to be in relation to the ability to practice at that time. So, three months ago, you'd have expected something different to what you might expect in the middle of an epidemic when intensive therapy unit capacity may be full, for example. But that doesn't mean, for example, that the expected requirements about integrity, about conduct with colleagues—those things will still be in place. A fully staffed ITU bed at the moment has nine nurses around it. We may be in a different position if the outbreak reaches anything like its worst case potential.

In terms of your point about the reach of Welsh Government communications, there are regular conversations with broadcasters but also local media as well, and I think they're a really important source of information. Even though lots of people don't buy a local paper now, lots of people look at local websites for their news, and every Member with a constituency or region is pretty obsessive about their most popular local website, whether it used to be a newspaper or not. They're sources of information people regularly go to, so we are definitely thinking about how we try to get information to them. Again, trusted and consistent and as clear as possible.

And I think at the end of this, many more people will know who the Chief Medical Officer for Wales is than may have done six months ago, because Dr Frank Atherton will be a regular feature in communications to the public because he's a figure in whom lots of trust is invested. He's not here to seek election at any point in the future. He's an independent medical advisor to the Welsh Government, and I think it's really important that he and his three colleagues are taking a prominent role in not just advising Government, but in that public communication exercise.

And I know you mentioned points, as other Members did, about behaviour over the weekend, in particular in caravan parks and beauty spots, but more than that, we saw crowds on Barry Island and other places too. So, that explains part of the reason why we took the extraordinary steps we did yesterday when the First Minister announced some restrictions, and then the four Governments took further restrictions again. The powers in this Bill would allow us to take further measures in the future and allow the measures we've already taken under some of our Public Health (Wales) Act 2017 powers to put those on a different footing, because the review requirements for them are different.

It's worth, I think, making this point, though—even though it’s not strictly about the Bill—but it is about those people that have moved from their own home and the 'return home and stay at home' message. We're about to send out tens of thousands of letters in Wales to vulnerable citizens, to advise them about why they're in that group and the support that they should find available to them and why we're asking them to stay at home for at least three months. Similar letters are going out to people in England and other UK nations. If those people have left their normal home, where they're registered with their health service—whether they've gone from Caerphilly or Kent to Tenby, it doesn’t really matter—they're not in their normal home, they're not going to receive that advice or guidance, and they won't be in a position to safeguard their own health to protect themselves. So, actually, it isn't just about the pressure on parts of the whole of the UK, because there were similar issues in Cornwall and in the highlands and islands of Scotland as well, and the First Minister of Northern Ireland yesterday said they'd had similar problems too, but actually all of those areas are set up for minor injuries provision; they're not set up for the additional pressure that we expect will happen in the coming weeks, even if we do manage to flatten the peak of the outbreak.

Helen Mary Jones, I was grateful for a range of the comments you made. I think on some of the questions, in terms of if we're considering using the powers to lighten social care support arrangements, it will be covered by the reporting duty. We'd certainly want to report on what we're doing and why. We may not be able to do that prospectively, because we may need to use powers at the sort of speed, to be effective, where we'll have to use the powers and then tell the Assembly that we've done that, as opposed to saying, 'Next week, we'll be doing something.' In normal times you can do that, but these are anything but normal times.

On the points made by a range of Members on statutory sick pay, we recognise those comments and you'll have heard the First Minister call for the universal basic income. It's not often the First Minister is in the same place on a policy response as the United States' Republicans, but there are US Republicans who are calling for, effectively, a universal basic income too. It just shows the extraordinary times that we're living in and the recognition that, if we don't provide people with means, then their behaviour may be driven by the need to pay their bills and they'll act in such a way that the public health emergency will get worse, not better. I don't think the First Minister and Mitt Romney are due to share a platform anytime soon.

The Welsh Government have been clear in our call for further support for self-employed people from the United Kingdom Government. We understand that the Chancellor is due to make an announcement in the next day or two about that. The sooner the better. But, within the Welsh Government, Ken Skates is already leading work on what more we can do within Wales with the levers and means that we have available to us.

On construction, again, it's not strictly in the Bill, but if the powers are given to us, then we'd certainly be on a firmer footing to make further interventions, should they be necessary. But I recognise, as indeed do the First Minister and other Ministers, the points made about the construction industry. It is certainly not always possible to work on a construction site and to socially distance yourself. My older brother worked in the construction industry and my father-in-law works in the construction industry as well. There is real concern that other Governments share. I understand, though, that safety-critical work would need to continue and, equally, work that is critical to the fight against COVID-19. So we wouldn't want to see the work being done to convert leisure centres in Carmarthenshire being ended. We actually need that work to carry on to equip us with the means to fight the disease and save as many lives as possible, but I recognise the points about the fact that this is a fragile sector in terms of workers' rights. People are often required to be self-employed where in reality they are under direct control in a way that most employees feel they are as well.

I was particularly impressed by Dawn Bowden's contribution, reminding us all of our role and our expected role as elected representatives and the very human impact of coronavirus and—as, indeed, Suzy Davies mentioned—about the interruption to our own family lives as well and the reasons why Members are reluctantly supporting these new powers. It doesn't give me or any other Minister in this Government any relish to ask Members to pass this motion, but the truth is this is not easy, not simple, and we're not certain when this will end. I think there was also a point raised by Alun Davies that he would not have voted for these measures only a few weeks ago.

On supermarkets, we think we do have some powers to intervene to regulate behaviour and purchasing now, but the Bill will give us a surer and firmer footing to do so, if that is required.