5. Debate: COVID19 — Unlocking our Society and Economy: Continuing the Conversation

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 5:15 pm on 20 May 2020.

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Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 5:15, 20 May 2020

I thought Helen Mary Jones offered one of the most reasonable accounts that I have heard of the need to respond to those people who recalcitrantly and persistently refuse to observe the regulations. It was not fair of her to say that the Government has not been listening; we have been in a continuous conversation with our chief constables and with our police and crime commissioners, and, once the necessary legal instruments can be put in place, I will be able to provide details of our intentions and how our proposals allow us to vote in favour of this amendment.

Llywydd, as I set out earlier, a test, trace and protect system is being set up. In advance of any substantial lifting of restrictions, that has to be in place, and I'm happy to confirm that again in voting in favour of amendment 5.

The Government will also support amendment 9 on the order paper. I need to be clear that, where the amendment says, 'introduce a universal basic income', our support is for the introductory work that would be needed to establish a basic income for the United Kingdom. I doubt that even the strongest supporter of that system would claim that it is ready on the shelf simply for wholesale introduction. However, Llywydd, many aspects of a universal basic income are already in place—the state pension for older people and child benefit to name just the most obvious. As we come out of the economic crisis that coronavirus has created, effective demand will be what our economy will require. And the best way to create effective demand is to make sure that there is money in the hands of our fellow citizens to be able to buy goods and services. Whether we call it a UBI, a citizen's income, a social dividend, all of them are rooted in a sense of social solidarity. And, as many other speakers have said, this whole experience surely teaches us that social solidarity is the most precious resource that we have as a community.

Llywydd, the one amendment we cannot support is amendment 3. It is overspecific in some aspects, and not capable of implementation in others. We have a proper financial plan; we've set it out over time, we will reiterate it and draw it together in the first supplementary budget. And we have groups in all parts of the Government—as Paul Davies asked for—already there, working on implementation of a pathway out of the crisis. But timescales, milestones and targets are the language of a different time and a different context. As I explained earlier today, the implementation of any measures depends not upon managerialism but upon an agile ability to identify the progress of the disease and to calibrate our measures against the medical and scientific advice at the time. It is to offer a false sense of certainty to populate a road map with actions that lie far in the future and in circumstances of which none of us are able to foresee. And Huw Irranca-Davies made that case, I thought, very strongly this afternoon.

We will not be tying ourselves to specific actions that are necessarily arbitrary in nature. Our chief medical officer has said many times that coronavirus turns out to be a virus with lots of surprises, and we will need to navigate our way through that future in a way that is attentive to the evidence, attentive to the circumstances, and clearly capable of being able to demonstrate to people in Wales that the measures we take are based on the circumstances that we face together.

Llywydd, if you will allow me, I will respond very briefly to some of the specifics in some contributions. A number of Plaid Cymru contributors particularly have pointed to New Zealand and its elimination strategy. And Adam Price said that it was important to learn from others. I agree, it is important to learn from others, but Neil Hamilton's contribution showed just how easy it is to draw the wrong conclusions from experience elsewhere, rather than the right ones. And New Zealand is an island. It has no land border with another population, and an elimination strategy is a good deal easier to implement and to achieve when you are not cheek by jowl with an administration who may be doing different things.