Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

1. Questions to the First Minister – in the Senedd at 11:16 am on 24 June 2020.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 11:16, 24 June 2020

(Translated)

Questions now from the party leaders. The first set of questions is from the leader of the Conservatives, Paul Davies.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, last week your Government took the decision to resume non-essential retail activity in Wales but kept its 5-mile travel rule, meaning that many families across Wales are still unable to reunite with their loved ones. As more and more people return to work and interact safely with colleagues and members of the public, last week's announcement was a prime opportunity to consider scrapping the Welsh Government's 5-mile travel rule. Non-essential businesses have been allowed to resume trading, and as people are able to travel more than 5 miles to visit a garden centre, it still begs the question why they cannot see their loved ones. Therefore, can you tell us, First Minister, what specific scientific evidence do you have as a Government to keep the 5-mile rule in place?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 11:17, 24 June 2020

Llywydd, every time I answer a question I have to correct Members. To begin with, I think it's just a mistake, but when I have to correct it time after time, I begin to think that it's done deliberately. The Member knows perfectly well that there is no rule of the sort that he describes. If it was a rule, there would be a regulation. There is no regulation. The regulation says stay local. Five miles is advice to people as to what 'stay local' might mean, and it would be very helpful if the leader of the opposition were to be clearer in his questioning so that people don't get the wrong impression. People must stay local; they must interpret that in their own localities.

We have retained the 5-mile rule for another two weeks. If everything is as we hope it will be by the start of July, we will be able to confirm that that will no longer apply in Wales. It has been a very important part of our armoury to prevent the spread of the virus from one community to another. Mr Davies represents a constituency in the far south-west of Wales where people have been very anxious about visitors from beyond that part of Wales, from places where the virus has had a more virulent spread, coming and bringing that virus with them. Because we have had a 'stay local' rule in Wales, places like Pembrokeshire have been very much shielded from the impact of coronavirus. There's the success of our policy, and it's felt directly by the Member's own constituents.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative 11:19, 24 June 2020

First Minister, you can dress this up as much as you want, and you've just said there isn't a 5-mile rule—if that is the case, why on earth include 5 miles in the guidance in the first place? It's quite clear your 5-mile rule continues to cause immeasurable anguish to so many families across Wales. You had an opportunity last week to give families some hope that they could start to see their loved ones safely, and complying with social distancing regulations.

Now, yesterday we saw further restrictions lifted in other parts of the UK, where the decision has been made to relax the social distancing guidance in England from 2m to 1m. Our social distancing regulations were rightly introduced here in Wales at the start of this pandemic in order to help limit the spread of the virus. However, as the R rate continues to have fallen to this level, it's right to reassess these regulations. Your colleague the Labour leader, Sir Keir Starmer, said he welcomed the statement overall, adding that he believes the UK Government is trying to do the right thing and in that he supports them. Given that the World Health Organization already recommends a distance of at least 1m, can you confirm what assessment the Welsh Government has made of the impact of relaxing the social distancing regulations, and what discussions are you having with professionals and, indeed, colleagues regarding this matter?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 11:20, 24 June 2020

Llywydd, to return to the Member's first point, I do hope that he is advising his constituents that it is perfectly possible in Wales today for people who have a compassionate reason for doing so to travel more than a local distance in order to see people who need that visit. It would be a great shame if—[Inaudible.]—about that, because the people in the circumstances that he described ought to be able to act in accordance with that ability to make a compassionate visit where that is necessary. That's available to people in Wales today, as it has been since the changes were made. 

In relation to changes made across our border, I look forward to seeing the evidence on which those changes were made. I spoke yesterday morning to Michael Gove, the Secretary of State in the Cabinet Office, and he promised that the devolved administrations would see all the evidence that the UK Government has used in coming to its conclusions. That evidence had not arrived by the end of yesterday, but we certainly hope to see it today.

In Wales the message remains: stay 2m apart. That is the safe way to behave. The science we have seen is the science from SAGE that says that if you halve the distance, the risk increases somewhere between two and five times greater than if you stay at a 2m distance. That is the science; the Member was interested in the science when it concerned him. That's the science in relation to the 2m rule. If because the transmission of the disease is falling in Wales we are able to make some exceptions in some sectors, provided it is safe to do so, and put mitigating measures in place, then of course we will consider that very carefully.

I know that sectors in England are waiting today to see the guidance as to how they will be able to use the advice that they were given yesterday in a practical way. We, too, will look forward to seeing that. If it is possible, always using public health as our primary test to reduce the 2m rule by exception, then we will see what we are able to do in Wales. But we will do it by looking at the evidence first and making the decision second, not making the decision and then looking for the evidence. 

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative 11:23, 24 June 2020

Well, First Minister, one sector that certainly needs some relaxation in its regulations is the tourism and hospitality sector. Now, last week's statement was, of course, welcomed, but it has resulted in more questions than answers, given the correspondence I've received from people with tourism businesses. The tourism and hospitality industry needs clarity, in my view in the form of a detailed strategy both for the short term and, indeed, the longer term—a strategy that clearly marks the Welsh Government's intentions against timescales, funding allocations and support to ensure businesses can remain viable, and a strategy that answers the questions the sector has, not one that results in operators feeling more confused than ever.

First Minister, will you therefore commit to providing a specific strategy for Welsh tourism that outlines exactly how the Welsh Government will support the sector in the short term and provides clarity for the longer term, so that businesses can be confident about the viability of the industry going forward? And given the vulnerability of the hospitality sector in Wales, what immediate action is the Welsh Government taking to support hospitality businesses across the country? 

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 11:24, 24 June 2020

Well, Llywydd, the announcement that we made on Friday does give hope to the tourism industry in Wales. It came as a result of very detailed discussions with the sector itself. The sector must now prepare to demonstrate that it is able to reopen safely in self-contained accommodation, and that it is able to take its local communities with it, because community consent remains a fundamentally important part of the plan for that industry. 

When the industry has demonstrated, as I certainly hope it can, that it is able safely to reopen on the terms we have announced so far, then our aim will be to add to the repertoire of things that can be done by that industry. But it is important we do it step by step, that we provide confidence to local communities, by demonstrating that the reopening of the industry can be done in a way that protects the health of staff, visitors and people who live in those localities. And I think the industry understands that very well.

Llywydd, the siren call for clarity in a set of circumstances that are so intrinsically unclear seems to me to miss the point by a very wide mark indeed. If the Member is able to tell me what the state of the virus in Wales will be six weeks, let alone six months, away from where we are today, then we would be able to provide clarity of the sort that he requires, but it's just not possible. And I'm sure he does understand that—that none of us know how this disease will progress as we move through the summer and into the autumn. We do our best to provide forward guidance to sectors in Wales, but to ask us to provide clarity where none is possible would be to provide a false prospectus to those industries, not something helpful of the sort that we wish to provide.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 11:26, 24 June 2020

(Translated)

Plaid Cymru leader, Adam Price.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru

First Minister, some residents had only returned to their homes following the February flooding when torrential rain fell in the village of Pentre last week, causing further damage to properties. In 2017 Welsh Ministers were expected to appoint a chair and members to the flood and coastal erosion committee before the end of that year. In reality, members of that committee, which was established under the terms of the Environment (Wales) Act 2016, weren't actually announced until March 2019, and their first meeting wasn't held until June 2019. That's two years without adequate focus on your Government's strategy on flooding. First Minister, why did it take so long?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 11:27, 24 June 2020

Well, I don't agree with the Member at all that the appointments of that sort have meant that we have not had a very significant focus on flooding, both inland and coastal flooding, in Wales. We have used this Assembly term to bring together the most ambitious funding package for flood and coastal erosion in Wales that we have ever seen, and that, working with our local authorities, we have amended the share of funding between Welsh Government and local authorities—we now fund all of the preparation works for those schemes. And our contribution to grant support to local authorities is to be increased to 85 per cent of the total of those schemes. I think that demonstrates in a good deal more concrete way than some appointments the extent to which we have invested in this field.

I have enormous sympathies, Llywydd, for those individuals that Adam Price mentioned, who have spent the time over the last couple of months getting their homes back in order, only to find them flooded again. But I don't think that, when they are dealing with that, they are worrying about appointments to Government committees.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru 11:28, 24 June 2020

We're in the middle of two immediate crises—health related and economic. But there is a third—the ecological crisis, which we can't afford to ignore. It will have long-term consequences, but there will also be some immediate ones, including an increased risk of flooding. Now, research by the universities of Birmingham and Southampton shows that planting trees around rivers could reduce the height of flooding in towns by up to 20 per cent. Almost a decade ago, the Welsh Government adopted the ambitious and widely lauded target of planting 5,000 hectares of new woodland every year until 2030. This target was dropped to 2,000 hectares. In the last five years, the Welsh Government has achieved an average of just 300 hectares a year, and in the 12 months up until March this year, it achieved just 80 hectares—4 per cent of the target. First Minister, where's the urgency in the climate emergency?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 11:29, 24 June 2020

Llywydd, I agree with the Member that the extent of woodland creation in Wales last year was not good enough. It's important to say that, as well as new woodland creation, an enormous effort goes into the restocking of woodland. And, in fact, we planted more trees in restocking woodland last year than we did the year before. But new woodland creation was not where we would want it to be last year. It is, to some extent, a factor of timings within the rural development programme as to when money is released to the sector. But we have quadrupled the amount of money that we are putting into the Glastir scheme, which has been—. The Glastir woodland creation rounds have been the most successful means we have found to date to stimulate the planting of new trees in Wales. Its budget will now be £8 million, up from £2 million, and I am confident that we will see a significant and necessary increase in new woodland creation in Wales, alongside our ambitions for a national forest.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru 11:30, 24 June 2020

Since 2015, Natural Resources Wales has been suffering a steady decline in funding, while being tasked with more and more responsibilities. NRW is now facing a further cut of £7.5 million. So, the Welsh Government is cutting back on funding, cutting back on tree planting, and seemingly cutting back on its commitment to tackling the climate emergency. Now, what many people in the Rhondda and adjacent communities want now is an immediate and expert-led inquiry to discover why they are enduring persistent flooding and, crucially, what needs to be done to stop this. First Minister, will you commit to such an inquiry today? 

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 11:31, 24 June 2020

Well, Llywydd, we are not cutting back on tree planting; we are quadrupling our investment in tree planting. And while NRW has inevitably had to bear its share of a decade of austerity—so, it isn't NRW's budget that is being cut year on year; it is the Welsh Government's budget that has been cut year on year since 2010, and I'm afraid no part of the public service can be regarded as wholly immune from that. There will be inquiries. There are legal responsibilities that fall on the local authority and NRW when flooding takes place. And I know that those local players are working very hard already to make sure that we understand why flooding took place again in those parts of the Rhondda very recently, to add that to what our understanding has been of the flooding back in February, and then, when we've had those local investigations concluded, we will use the outcome to make sure that we put further mitigation measures in place. 

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 11:32, 24 June 2020

(Translated)

Leader of the Brexit Party, Mark Reckless. 

Photo of Mark Reckless Mark Reckless Conservative

First Minister, yesterday, the Prime Minister announced the reopening of restaurants, pubs and entertainment venues and a switch from regulation to guidance, saying he would trust in the British people's common sense. Can you confirm that emphasis on British common sense does not apply to Wales and you intend to keep Wales lagging several weeks behind England? 

The leader of the opposition here cited the leader of the opposition in Westminster and his general support for the UK Government approach. Similarly, aside from my group, isn't it the case that there has been cross-party support here for the different approach enabled by devolution in Wales? Unlike the much discussed five-mile guidance, the 2m rule is enshrined in law, with all business in Wales having to nominate someone to be liable for prosecution. It was endorsed and entrenched by this Senedd with the support not just of Labour and Plaid Members, but also the votes of Welsh Conservatives. If Members want to follow a UK approach and reopen our economy, don't they need to vote for it?  

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 11:33, 24 June 2020

Llywydd, the Prime Minister's announcements yesterday were announcements for England. This Senedd must accept its responsibilities, in the way the Member says, for making regulations for Wales. We will continue to do so in a way that puts the health of our population at the forefront of the way that we bring proposals to the floor of the Senedd and seek to secure support for them. There is a minority—it's represented by the Member—who wish that they lived somewhere else and that decisions were made differently. We are confident that we have the support not just of the breadth of the Senedd behind the approach we are taking, but that we have the support of Welsh people for it as well. 

Photo of Mark Reckless Mark Reckless Conservative 11:34, 24 June 2020

First Minister, the fact that some people may be in a minority or disagree with your approach does not mean they want to live elsewhere. Today, we vote on the supplementary budget, with vast appropriations and reallocations of funds. But, in your Government amendment to a later debate today, you suggest it's not enough and the UK Government must urgently remove fiscal restrictions that prevent Welsh Government responding effectively to the pandemic.

But isn't it your Government's use of exorbitant powers you already have in the field of health that is causing a decline in Welsh revenues relative to England? What is the impact of harsher, longer lockdown in Wales on Welsh revenues and those rates of income tax? What further decline in land transaction tax receipts will we now see, given the English housing market reopened six weeks ago, yet you continue to ban house viewings here, except for empty properties? Given the consequent fiscal hole, how long will it be, First Minister, before you use the powers that the Conservatives granted to raise income tax by an unlimited amount?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 11:35, 24 June 2020

Llywydd, the Member always manages to turn a sensible question into a piece of nonsense, as he did right at the end. So, you can be quite sure that there is no such proposal anywhere, other than in his own mind.

The points that we are making to the Treasury are just a series of sensible points. We want to have the ability to convert capital into revenue, at a time when the pressure on our revenue budgets is like it has never been before. We want greater flexibility to be able to use the Welsh reserve in a way that would allow us to respond to the conditions of a global pandemic. These are sensible measures that would allow us to manage the pressures we are under in a way that responds to them within our own resources. It's time that the rules at the Treasury caught up with the nature of devolution, and let's hope that we are able to use this opportunity to accelerate some of the thinking that has, I think, remained stuck in previous ways of doing things for too long.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 11:37, 24 June 2020

Before I call the next question, and in line with my role to ensure the proper conduct of Senedd business, and to remind us all that we are meeting today remotely and virtually, I am aware that one Member is in the Chamber and filming himself and broadcasting to that point on social media. I will ask for that Member to be removed now from the virtual Parliament, and we will be closing the Chamber in due course. My advice to Mr McEvoy is not to play games with your Parliament.

Question 3—David Rowlands.