3. What legal representations has the Counsel General made on behalf of the Welsh Government regarding inter-governmental structures within the UK? OQ55360

I make frequent representations on behalf of the Welsh Government on inter-governmental relations and the structures required to support co-operation and co-ordination among UK Governments. Effective inter-governmental working has never been more important as we deal with the COVID-19 pandemic and as we approach, at the same time, the end of the European transition period.

Thank you, Minister. In your role, you will, of course, have an eye to the creaking infrastructure of inter-governmental structures across the UK. It was being tested before COVID-19, it was being tested before the EU withdrawal process and was, indeed, being tested year after year, as the people of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, and the great metropolitan city regions of England grew more muscular and gained more powers and authority so that decisions are taken at the right level and as close to people as possible. So, Counsel General, what hope do you have that the creaking inter-governmental constitutional apparatus of the UK, based on centuries-old structures that have struggled, frankly, to keep up with the increasing pace of devolution and principles of subsidiarity, can be made good to reflect the powers and strengths of devolved Governments, of this Senedd and of the people of Wales?

I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for that question. Whether it's in 'Brexit and Devolution' or more latterly in 'Reforming our Union', we as a Government have sought consistently to be constructive advocates for a series of reforms for a better functioning union that gives full voice to the democratic legitimacy of the Senedd and the Welsh Government here in Wales, and establishes inter-governmental relations on the basis of equality of participation and parity of esteem. The arrangements we have at the moment are very far from meeting those tests, which we feel are the right tests for Wales.

As you yourself say, Huw, in relation to the process of engaging across the UK on European exit, there have been many, many examples of the shortcomings in those relationships and those structures. I think most recently—you asked for information about representations—I wrote to Michael Gove asking, effectively, for a reboot of the engagement in relation to EU exit. We still hope for progress in relation to the inter-governmental review, which is the fundamental review of Government relations across the board. I was hoping that we would have made more progress in the last few weeks since the Joint Ministerial Committee (EU Negotiations) in May than we have been able to do. The Dunlop review remains unpublished, on the UK Government's part, and I'm sure we would all share a wish for that to be published.

I think most recently, the inter-governmental workings in relation to COVID have been instructive in this sense. At the start of the process, clearly, COBRA was the forum in which decisions were made, but at no point did anyone reach for the JMC structures as a means of engaging on an ongoing basis. And I think that will tell us how, in truth, all Governments in all parts of the UK regard those structures as not fit for purpose and in need of pretty fundamental reform. 

In addition to what you've just said, Minister, there are a number of examples over the past few weeks of the UK Government ignoring the views that you as Welsh Government have taken and have placed in correspondence—for example, extending the transition period and many other issues that you've just mentioned. So, would you agree that your stance of being content within the union and continuing to be ignored within that—would you agree that that doesn't meet the needs of the people of Wales?

Well, with all due respect, those aren't the two options. The choice is that we have a form of a union where the voice and the views of the people of Wales, through the Senedd, are reflected appropriately in the relationship and the inter-governmental system. We're not saying that the current situation can't be improved—quite the contrary. We're not defending the status quo, but making a constructive effort to put an alternative system in place across the United Kingdom.

The time is well past where this became critical, and the Welsh Government on all occasions has taken a constructive and co-operative stance, and described the system that we would want to see in the interests of Wales. There are demands now—given our specific experience in the process of exiting the European Union, and also in terms of the inter-governmental structures in the context of COVID, this now has to happen as a matter of urgency.