Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 7:05 pm on 15 July 2020.
Now, I have to say, I'm rather surprised that Plaid have chosen to table a debate on independence on today of all days. It's the last Plenary session before the summer recess and we could have been debating a whole host of more pressing matters—matters such as the Welsh Government's COVID-testing fiasco, the sluggish response to reopening the economy in Wales, or the need to extend the use of face coverings. But, instead, we're here navel-gazing, frankly, about independence as some sort of romantic notion to solve all of Wales's ills.
I must say that I find it very ironic that Plaid Cymru, who've spent four years arguing that Wales is stronger and more secure as part of a union of nations, the European Union—against the will of the public, might I add—is now calling for Wales to go it alone in the world and to divorce itself from the very union that protects our nations collectively.
We've spent too long in recent decades, in my view, debating the constitution in Wales. Every hour that we spend debating the constitution and constitutional tinkering is an hour that we're not debating how to raise standards in our schools, in our hospitals and to make our economy wealthier. So, instead of rowing about more powers constantly, let's use the powers we've already got and let's improve people's lives with them. The next decade of devolution needs to be devoted to delivering for the people of Wales, not more constitutional soul searching.
Now, we know that, over 20 years, support for independence has largely stagnated. The only political party in favour of Welsh independence that stood in seats—not all seats—at the last general election in Wales secured less than 10 per cent of the vote. That's a smaller share than Plaid actually won in the 1970s. So, ymlaen, comrades, let's see where this argument actually takes us.
And it's not just Plaid that's in a pickle on devolution either. Labour is in a mess too. You lot claim to be a unionist party. The First Minister himself has said that socialism is incompatible with Welsh nationalism. Yet he leads a party here in Wales that is home to a group called 'Labour for an Independent Wales'. Now, if Facebook likes are to be believed, this group has at least 600 members. So, if the First Minister really believes his own rhetoric and his mantra on devolution, then why isn't the Labour Party taking action now to expel these insurgents? Surely, that would send the sort of clear signal and strong message that a unionist party would want to send to people?
My party remains committed to the United Kingdom. We're not prepared to entertain those who actively campaign against it within our membership, and I challenge the Labour Party to make the same commitment.
Now, for the record, let me be clear: I am a staunch supporter of devolution, but I am no fan of an independent Wales. And for those who point to the last 21 years and say that devolution has failed Wales, I say, 'No, it's not devolution that's failed Wales; it's the Labour Party, along with their little helpers who've been in Government, Plaid Cymru included, and the Liberal Democrats and some of the independents that we've seen along the way. It is they who have failed Wales.'
Devolution is the settled will, in my view, of the majority of the people of Wales. Wales voted in 1999, albeit by a small margin, in favour of establishing devolution. They voted again in 2011 to extend the powers of this Senedd. And I find it extraordinary that some of the people who no doubt will contribute to this debate today will call for a further referendum on this institution's existence, or, even worse still, to scrap this institution without a referendum or any democratic mandate to do so. And it's probably going to be the very same people who said we should respect the Brexit referendum back in 2016 that are going to be making that argument.
Independence would be bad for Wales and it would be bad for the United Kingdom. It would make us less resilient to global events and catastrophes. We would be less secure. And, of course, we do know that, as a net beneficiary of the UK Treasury, Wales would be poorer. For every £1 spent in England on devolved matters, the Welsh Government currently receives £1.20. In 2017-18, Wales had an estimated fiscal deficit of nearly £14 billion. That's almost the total sum of the Welsh Government's annual block grant. So, an independent Wales would have a very difficult choice to face: massive cuts—[Interruption.] I will. Massive cuts in public spending, or huge increases in taxation or a combination of the two. I don't think that that is the sort of recipe to get our country bouncing back from the coronavirus pandemic.