18. Plaid Cymru Debate: An Independent Wales

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 7:44 pm on 15 July 2020.

Alert me about debates like this

Photo of Jane Hutt Jane Hutt Labour 7:44, 15 July 2020

I'd like to thank Plaid Cymru for tabling this motion in the last session of this Senedd. It's provided a very lively debate, which I think has focused on the positive impact of devolution for Wales, with the Welsh Government's response to the coronavirus pandemic. And I think the debate has provided the opportunity to highlight the many ways in which we've used our powers, with growing strength and confidence, led by the First Minister, in the handling of this terrible virus, to protect and safeguard our citizens and public services. And I have to say that the robust scrutiny of the Welsh Government by this Welsh Parliament, in the Senedd and our parliamentary committees, has stood us in good stead. And I do thank the Llywydd and her officials for making this scrutiny happen from the earliest days of the lockdown and onwards.

But this is the democracy we sought for Wales, with a House of Commons Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee noting in 2018 that

'Devolution is now an established and significant feature of the UK constitutional architecture and should be treated with respect to maintain the integrity of the United Kingdom.'

The current pandemic, as has been said in this debate, has drawn attention to the way in which our constitution works, both its strengths and its weaknesses, and our ability to pursue our own approach, as Rhun ap Iorwerth acknowledged, and the need to co-operate with others. Self-rule and shared rule, and the propositions in 'Reforming our Union: Shared Governance in the UK', published by the First Minister last year, have set out the Government's position.

Regarding the proposition for a referendum, and following Carwyn Jones's points, our view is that, if a Welsh Government has secured an electoral mandate to hold a referendum on a fundamental constitutional question, it is entitled to expect the UK Parliament to make the necessary arrangements. Provision for a legally binding referendum on Scottish independence in 2014 was made by the UK Parliament, following a clear majority won by the Scottish National Party in the 2011 election. But that precondition is essential. For Westminster to be asked to make the arrangements for a referendum on the constitutional status of Wales—that request must come from a Welsh Government with a mandate to do so, and no such mandate presently exists. But those who seek a referendum in the next Senedd, whether to secure independence, or, indeed, abolition, can make their case to the people of Wales next May. But the view of this Welsh Government is clear: we believe that Wales's interests are best served by a strong devolution settlement within a strong UK, and the United Kingdom is better and stronger for having Wales in it.

The current settlement isn't perfect. Our current constitution is outmoded and inappropriate. The four Governments of the United Kingdom should operate as equal partners—each respecting the legitimate identity and aspirations of the others, whilst co-operating for the benefit of the union as a whole. And as Mick Antoniw has stated, the constitutional convention, long called for, could take us forward in achieving this. And nothing illustrates the need for this case to be made so acutely than our current experience. Viruses do not carry passports, nor do they respect national borders. Our businesses are not only dependent on Welsh customers; our economy is inextricably linked with the rest of the United Kingdom and beyond. The health needs of our citizens are no different from those elsewhere, and tackling COVID-19 calls for more co-operation between Governments, not less. 

If we look at our engagement with the other Governments of the United Kingdom since the beginning of the pandemic, they've been largely positive. Expeditious—[Inaudible.]—of the coronavirus has actually led to close co-operation between all four Governments and it's an example of what we can achieve when we work together. But unfortunately, as we move into different phases of response and recovery, it's the UK Government that appears to be pulling away from the four-nation approach. 

I do welcome Darren Millar's statement today of being a staunch supporter of devolution and I hope you, Darren, will raise your voice, as will the Welsh Conservatives, to get the UK Government to help remove those unreasonable restrictions on our budget so that we can use our fiscal powers more effectively. 

The support for jobs and businesses initially announced by the Chancellor was welcomed. And the resources and levers available to him are far greater than would be available to us, if we were standing alone. But we face the deepest recession in living memory—[Inaudible.]