11. Debate on the Finance Committee Report: Impact of variations in national and sub-national income tax

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 4:51 pm on 23 September 2020.

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Photo of Alun Davies Alun Davies Labour 4:51, 23 September 2020

Sorry, I pressed the wrong button. [Laughter.] I was getting overexcited with my own rhetoric. [Laughter.]

But we also need to learn lessons. This was in many ways a lesson-learning investigation and inquiry for many of us. The idea of a Welsh tax policy is new to us in Wales, but the idea of differential tax policy within federal states is not a new one across the world. And we need to be looking where different states have different tax policies in different places, levied by different Governments, and how they, taken together, help shape that territory, that community.

And let me finish by saying this: in having this debate, we need to have an honest debate. I've heard speakers in different parts of the Chamber talk about a low-tax Wales versus a high-tax Wales, and we've had that conversation before. The reality is we've got a very low tax base at the moment. We've got both a low tax base and low taxation levels, and we've always fooled ourselves—this extraordinarily dishonest approach that we can have Scandinavian-level services with American levels of taxation. And that's a debate we've not actually had, and we've believed it—we've been daft enough to believe our own rhetoric. And I believe we need to move away from that and to have a very real debate about where taxation lies in Wales, where it should lie. We're always home to the national health service when we want to be proud of it, but are we prepared to spend money on the national health service? We clapped this year, but will we put our hands—