2. Will the Minister make a statement on the governance of public projects funded by the Welsh Government? OQ55573

Robust appraisal, management and assurance are the core governance principles of the projects funded by the Welsh Government. This includes assessment and management of the risks posed to the project, which is underpinned by an independent review mechanism of the projects performance at key stages in its life-cycle. 

Well, thank you very much for that response, but you will, of course, be aware of the recent report by Audit Wales on Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, which went £60 million over budget. Now, there is criticism made of the health board there, but it's also very critical of the governance arrangements of the Welsh Government. Despite the clear concerns expressed about the business plan, and the fact that the business case wasn't sufficiently strong—despite that, the plan was approved.

Of course, if the Welsh Government and the health board had had that clear business case in place before approving that plan, then it's unlikely that it would have overspent. So, who takes responsibility for that failure?

Llyr Gruffydd is right to point to what was a critical report from the Wales Audit Office. But it is important at the same time to recognise that the Welsh Government had already taken steps to improve its arrangements for approving business cases before the funding problems at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd came to light. And further improvements in Welsh Government processes have been embedded, reflecting the outcomes of that review into this project.

So, further Welsh Government internal audit work undertaken in 2014 stated that there was no evidence to suggest that the capital estates and facilities did not discharge their function with monitoring the project, and it's very important as well to recognise that, in 2017, the Auditor General for Wales published a report that was called 'Implementation of the NHS Finances (Wales) Act 2014', and within that report there was recognition of the steps that we have taken in Welsh Government, and steps taken by the NHS capital estates and facilities team to significantly strengthen its review of capital projects. And the report said that there are significant lessons and good practice that can be learnt from the approach taken in the Welsh Government's NHS capital programme. So, while I would absolutely acknowledge those issues that were highlighted in the report, it is also important, I think, to acknowledge the progress and improvement that has happened since.

Unfortunately Minister, this isn't a one-off, is it, because the Wales audit office has repeatedly highlighted areas of public expenditure where the money either was being wasted or failed to deliver a notable outcome? So, we can refer to, for example, the rural development grant or Communities First—those are two that immediately spring to mind. Now, I understand and appreciate that it's down to individual Ministers to decide on their spending portfolios, but as far as you are concerned, as the finance Minister, is it not your role to ensure that value for money is achieved and public money is not wasted? So, please, could you outline the role that you play in ensuring that portfolio holders spend their budgets appropriately and accountably, and how do you and your department help to steer that ship back onto the right course if you see that they are not doing so?

I'm really grateful for this opportunity to highlight some of the work within the COVID context that we've been doing to ensure value for money and affordability in every proposal that has been brought forward through the COVID-19 reserve, which, of course, is the funding that is behind everything that we've done to respond to the crisis. So, every single day, at the start of the crisis, I convened a team that looked at every single bid that was coming forward from colleagues across Welsh Government—so, additional funding for the NHS, funding for free school meals, funding to support local authorities with their loss of income. Every single bid that related to our response to COVID has come through that particular group, where we provide that additional layer of surety and that additional layer of robust scrutiny to ensure that we are making decisions that have value for money at their heart and, of course, affordability at their heart too. 

So, that group has met probably close to 100 times now since the start of the crisis, and that's all been about interrogating every single bid that comes forward from any part of Government to seek additional funding to respond to the crisis and to provide that additional layer. So, that's very much, I think, a process that I hope will give people confidence that, when these decisions are being taken, and taken very rapidly, there is an additional layer of probity applied to those decisions.

Minister, as we've already heard from these questions, one of the benefits of the governance of public projects in Wales by the Welsh Government is that there is direct accountability here on the floor of the Senedd and close to the people of Wales, and that's the way it should be. It also means that projects are seen through the paradigm of Welsh policy, including the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. So does she have any concerns with the idea of quite distant Whitehall Ministers and Whitehall mandarins tramping across Wales in their size 10 boots and distributing largesse in future, without that close-to-the-people accountability and without taking account of the policy framework in Wales?

I absolutely do share those concerns and it is really difficult to imagine how just two clauses in a Bill could be more damaging to Wales from a devolved public spending perspective. It puts huge powers in the hands of UK Government Ministers to spend in Wales in areas that are currently devolved and have been devolved for 20 years. We have the networks here in Wales; we understand where the money will make the difference. We have those local relationships that will use the money well.

There are big issues here. I mean, what happens is the UK Government presumably will top-slice money from the Welsh Government's budget; this isn't additional spend. If the UK Government is looking for areas to spend within its own responsibilities, I'm sure that many of us can have a list as long as your arm of ideas that they could spend on, starting off with things such as electrifying the main line to Swansea, investing in the tidal lagoon in Swansea and investing in broadband so that Welsh Government doesn't have to pick up the tab for things that are rightly the responsibility of the UK Government, including rail more widely, and that's another area where we've had to act because the UK Government doesn't want to. So, they should start off by focusing their spend in the areas that they're responsible for and leave Welsh Government to undertake its own responsibilities.