Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

1. Questions to the First Minister – in the Senedd at 1:43 pm on 29 September 2020.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:43, 29 September 2020

(Translated)

Questions now from the party leaders. The leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Paul Davies. 

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative 1:44, 29 September 2020

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, there's now been a series of important policy statements issued by Welsh Government Ministers to the media instead of this Chamber. Of course, it's vital that Members are given the opportunity to respond to Welsh Government announcements on behalf of the people of Wales. Last week, you chose to make an announcement to the media that affected hundreds of thousands of people right across south Wales. You failed to answer questions on the timings of your statement, and this week you've decided not to even turn up in person. First Minister, that disregard for Welsh democracy is unacceptable, and will you now guarantee that any future decisions will firstly be made in this Chamber so that, in the spirit of openness and transparency, elected Members will have the opportunity to appropriately scrutinise the Welsh Government? 

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour

Llywydd, you said in introducing this afternoon's session that every Member of the Senedd is equally able to participate, whether that is remotely or in person, so I will leave you to deal with the remarks that the leader of the opposition made about where people choose to take part in these proceedings.

I say to people in Wales all the time that they should avoid unnecessary journeys, and I believe that I'm equally able to answer questions in the way that we are doing now as I would be if I were in the Chamber. It is entirely wrong for the Government to ask people in Wales to take action in one direction and then not to behave in the same way ourselves. I think the Member is quite wrong to suggest that somehow, because I'm answering questions in the way that I am, that that is not satisfactory. But that's a point for you, Llywydd, I believe, rather than for me.

As to the other point, it's plainly nonsensical. I answer questions on the floor of this Assembly, I make statements on the floor of this Assembly absolutely regularly. I did so all the way through the recess, when his Government at Westminster wasn't available to answer a single question from any elected representative, and there's nothing at all that this Government has to apologise for or answer for in being available and answerable to the Senedd of Wales.

 

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative 1:46, 29 September 2020

Well, Llywydd, I'm not going to take any lectures off the First Minister. I put it to you, First Minister, that you can turn up to your Government offices in Cathays Park, but you can't turn up to the heart of Welsh democracy, which is also your place of work. And when it comes to making statements outside this Chamber, I'm afraid you've got a track record as a Government. More than 2 million people across Wales are now living under your Government's restrictions; the very least that you can do is offer their elected representatives a chance to question you on your decision making, and that's why firstly making statements to this Chamber is so important.

Now, there are some very real concerns about the impact of local lockdowns on people who are living alone, and it's vital that the Welsh Government looks at the restrictions with a view to finding some way of allowing single-person households to mix with another person. There has been little recognition of the serious impact that this could have on people's mental health, particularly given that so many single-person households have already had to shield for most of this year. And I know you've said that you're concerned about those elderly people living on their own who, at the moment, are not able to mix with anybody else indoors. Therefore, can you tell us what you’re doing about it, because you’re aware of the Scottish model that allows a single person to form an extended household with one other? Knowing how desperately isolated some people across Wales must be feeling, can you tell us why the Welsh Government hasn't already changed the regulations in relation to single-person households, as I'm sure you'd agree, we have to offer these people hope?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:47, 29 September 2020

Well, Llywydd, I believe I'm at the heart of Welsh democracy now, and I'm answering the Member's questions, so I continue to fail to see what he thinks he has to complain about.

As for people who live in single-person households, I think that is an important issue. I've been discussing it with leaders of local authorities who are under local restrictions. I've been taking an interest in the Scottish model of doing so. It is being considered as part of the 21-day review that we carry out here in Wales. So, in Wales, we have stuck throughout to the pattern of reviewing our regulations every three weeks. That consideration for single-adult households is part of the current three-week review, which was discussed by Cabinet colleagues this morning. I'm hopeful that we will be able to complete the necessary regulations and the advice that we need to take from the chief medical officer and others in order to complete our consideration of it within the three-week review that culminates this week.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative 1:49, 29 September 2020

First Minister, as more and more people across Wales are now living under stricter restrictions, it's absolutely essential that the Welsh Government's testing programme is as effective as possible, and that capacity is being used. Last weekend, you told us that, currently in Wales, we’re operating around 2,000 to 3,000 tests a day from Welsh capacity, which is even significantly under the 9,000 tests a day target the Welsh Government initially promised. And yet, a week earlier, you said that an additional 28,000 tests per week could be processed, with further capacity available to manage outbreaks across Wales.

First Minister, it's absolutely vital that the system is capable of responding to spikes in testing that arise from outbreaks, and yet you've made it clear that for Wales to reach its full capacity, it would be difficult on a day-to-day basis. Given that you've invested a further £32 million to speed up turnaround times for coronavirus test results, can you tell us what fundamental changes have been delivered to our laboratory services to increase their capacity and resilience, and what urgent steps are you taking to ensure that all labs in Wales are open and working? And more generally, how confident are you that Wales has a testing system that is capable of supporting our people over the winter months?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:50, 29 September 2020

Llywydd, I think if the Member wants to quote me he should try to do so accurately. I said at the weekend that the testing numbers this week would be over 5,000 and that it would rise to 8,000 within the Welsh system very shortly. The real struggle we face in the Welsh system at the moment are the problems faced by the lighthouse labs for which his party are responsible. Now, we've had an assurance from those lighthouse labs that they will be able to increase the service they provide to Wales from the 9,400 tests we currently have to 14,000 by the start of October and 19,000 by the start of November. I hope very much that that will turn out to be true and that the lighthouse labs will be able to return to the level of service that they were providing to Wales some four weeks ago. But if you want to know where the struggle in Wales has been over recent weeks, it has been in the pressure that the lighthouse labs system has come under and the difficulties that his Government at Westminster have experienced in coping with those pressures and putting that system back on track again.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:51, 29 September 2020

(Translated)

Plaid Cymru leader, Adam Price.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru

Diolch, Llywydd. Many of us will have been surprised and somewhat alarmed at the scenes from the top of Snowdon over the weekend, with long queues of people attempting to reach the summit with complete disregard, it would appear, for social distancing guidelines, but it raises a wider issue of course. Many of these will have been visitors and there's nothing set out in the guidelines at the moment that stops someone from a COVID hotspot elsewhere in the UK travelling to areas of Wales currently with low community transmission. Why is it the case, First Minister, that you can't travel from Aberafan to Abergavenny, but you can travel from Manchester to Mynytho?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:52, 29 September 2020

Well, Llywydd, can I begin by agreeing with Adam Price that those were alarming pictures? Let me make a number of points in reply, however. To begin with, it's really important and we've had lots of anxiety over the summer in holiday destinations about people travelling from elsewhere in the United Kingdom and the risk that that might pose to the spread of the virus in those areas. Actually, the evidence has turned out to be much more positive than that and we don't have examples where the virus has got out of control in those holiday areas because it's been imported from elsewhere. So, I think it's very important to be guided by the evidence and the evidence is that that hasn't caused difficulties, and I think that that is a tribute to two things: it is because people have heard our message about, 'Visit Wales safely', and it's a tribute to the efforts that have been made in those communities to welcome people from elsewhere, which is so important to the local economy, while doing it in a way that does not cause a risk to public health.

However, I think the Member makes an important point. In Wales, when we get a hotspot area, we ask people not to travel outside that area other than for certain narrowly specified purposes, and going on holiday is not one of them. I wrote to the Prime Minister yesterday urging him to do the same in England. I don't think it is right for us to institute a set of border controls trying to prevent people from elsewhere visiting Wales: I think that would lead us into all sorts of anomalous and difficult territory. But I do think that as we act to prevent people who live in hotspots in Wales from travelling to England and taking the risk of the virus with them, so the Prime Minister in his capacity as the Prime Minister of England in this case ought to do the same to prevent people from English hotspots from travelling elsewhere in England to Wales or other parts of the United Kingdom because of the risk that that undoubtedly poses. I wrote to him yesterday asking him to do that, urging him to call a COBRA meeting for this week, as the First Minister of Scotland did at the weekend, and I look forward to a reply.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru 1:54, 29 September 2020

First Minister, the summer has been an extremely anxious time for young people, as you know. As a consequence of the A-level debacle, many were left not knowing if they were going to university at all, let alone which one. Having arrived on campus last week, the worry now will be whether they will be allowed to return home for Christmas. Students like Meg, a first-year law student from Brecon, studying at Bath, need clarity. She says the message from the Government is clearly confusing and could definitely be communicated better, particularly for students who've moved to a different country with different regulations. So, can you answer these specific questions? To what extent is education exempt from rules allowing students to form new households? Can students studying and living in a restricted area in Wales but who live elsewhere return home? Can students studying and living in areas where no restrictions apply travel home, even if home is within an area of local restrictions? And finally, can students studying in one locally restricted area travel to another locally restricted area if this means getting home?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:56, 29 September 2020

Llywydd, the rules governing young people in Wales are the same rules as govern everybody else. I am not prepared to single out young people for adverse treatment in the way that is sometimes being suggested. I agree with what Adam Price said in opening that second set of questions, that young people have had a very difficult time during coronavirus, and the Welsh Government with the sector in Wales is working very hard to make sure that even in these most difficult sets of circumstances, young people's welfare goes on being properly safeguarded, that their access to a high-quality education is preserved throughout this term, and that they are not treated any differently to any other Welsh citizen. And the answers to Adam Price's questions are that the rules that would apply to any person in Wales would apply to a young person who is studying as well, and all of that is available to people who need to have answers to those questions, both on the Welsh Government website, but also in the specific advice from different higher education institutions working hard to communicate to people who have arrived to study at them.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru 1:57, 29 September 2020

On 4 September, First Minister, SAGE warned that there was a significant risk that higher education could amplify local and national transmission of COVID-19. The risk, they said, required national oversight, and once again, they identified testing as critically important. On 15 July, you said, 'Today we can carry out 15,000 tests a day.' On Sunday, you said, '15,000 is not a sustainable day-to-day target.' So as universities have been opening their doors, the testing system is failing, and if the problem is the lighthouse lab network, why did you buy into it and place your trust in it in the way that you did? Now, the advice from SAGE at the beginning of this month was that a co-ordinated outbreak response strategy should urgently be put in place between Government, HE institutions and local public health teams, but it seems currently, First Minister, there is no clear plan to support students, no clear plan to support the higher education sector. Christmas is only 12 weeks away; when can we expect that plan?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:58, 29 September 2020

Llywydd, that plan exists, and the Member is quite wrong to just spray around accusations that it doesn't exist when it very plainly does, and so very many people are working so hard to make sure that students in Wales are well looked after. He is quite wrong to say that the testing system is failing in Wales. We have over 100,000 students in Wales and about 100 of them have been tested as having a positive case of coronavirus. Of our TTP system, 93 per cent of close contacts continue to be contacted, 94 per cent of positive cases reached—85 per cent of those within 24 hours, 92 per cent within 48 hours. The system in Wales—and indeed the system in Scotland—is standing up to the testing time that we are going through. It's very much unlike what is happening elsewhere.

As far as the lighthouse labs are concerned, I was urged many times on the floor of the Senedd to make sure that Wales took full advantage of the capacity that it would provide to us. It was right that we should do that, and as I said, until a number of weeks ago, the system was serving Wales very well. We want to see that system restored. We want to see it back providing the volume of tests and the timeliness of tests that we know Wales needs. I urge UK Ministers to make sure that they do everything they can to put us in that position, and then we will be very glad indeed, again, to be part of that system, which is providing thousands of tests to Welsh people and is part of the infrastructure that we will all be relying upon as we go further into the autumn and winter. 

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 2:00, 29 September 2020

(Translated)

Leader of the Brexit Party, Mark Reckless.

Photo of Mark Reckless Mark Reckless Conservative

First Minister, when you put Cardiff into local lockdown, and through the force of law required people to work from home if reasonably practicable, did you consider the potential impact of that on our proceedings in the Senedd? Now, if you're correct when you say Members are equally able to participate, whether remotely or in person, doesn't that imply that it is reasonably practicable for Members to work from home? And if Members take a different view, given that is law, may they be receiving a knock on the door from South Wales Police? You said earlier that, 'My colleague will be making a statement on the floor of the Chamber later today'. Can I infer from that that some Ministers will be coming in person to the Chamber, even if you will not yourself? And you haven't said whether you're speaking from a well-appointed hut at the rear of your garden, or whether you're speaking from your office in Cathays Park. If you are speaking from your office, then presumably you've determined it's not reasonably practicable to work from home, so why don't you come to the Chamber? And, overall, when you say people must work from home by law if reasonable practicable, would you ask people to do as you say, or to follow the examples set by our Presiding Officer and the leader of the opposition?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 2:02, 29 September 2020

Well, Llywydd, I can assure the Member that when the decision is taken to impose local restrictions in any part of Wales, then all aspects of that decision are carefully considered. It is for individual Members to make a judgment about how they stay within the law. It is reasonably practicable for me to work from my office in Cathays Park, because in order to be able to answer Members' questions, I need the support of staff in the Welsh Government, who help me to make sure that I am as well equipped as I can be to provide answers that Members have a right to expect. So, it is reasonably practicable for me to work from here because I live in Cardiff and need to cross no boundaries to get here. Other Members are bound by the regulations, just as every member of Welsh society in areas where local restrictions are in place, and I think people have an obligation to make sure that they are carefully considering the legal position they are in. I'm on the floor of the Senedd, Llywydd. As you made clear, virtual or physical participation is identical. I'm on the floor of the Senedd now answering questions. My colleague Ken Skates will answer questions remotely, and he will be on the floor as well. 

Photo of Mark Reckless Mark Reckless Conservative 2:03, 29 September 2020

First Minister, you say you're working from your office because it's reasonably practicable to do so, but isn't the law that you must work from home if it is reasonably practicable to do so? And given it's equally possible to participate remotely and physically, would not that be the case? Yet you choose not to come to the Chamber, just as you chose last week to make announcements not in the Chamber, but via the media. You say all these decisions and announcements and regulations that you keep on passing with great variety and regularity around coronavirus are carefully considered, on which note, could I ask whether your policy of making everyone leave pubs and restaurants at the same time is working to help us build herd immunity?

Could I also ask what is happening in terms of our democracy and proposals chaired by an official in your Government to consider postponing the election and extending the term of this Welsh Parliament beyond five years? Wouldn't that be extraordinary given the democratic norms that we have? In the United States, we see the first debate between the presidential contenders tonight. I note that Donald Trump wanted to delay the elections there, but that has been given very short shrift. Is it not the case that we need to vote next May, as required by law, and it would be quite wrong to extend our term further or to delay those elections? As one constituent of mine said today—and I wonder if you could answer this—if we can queue for the supermarket, surely we can queue to vote. 

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 2:05, 29 September 2020

Llywydd, the regulations in place in Wales do not require people all to leave the pub at the same time; indeed, it was a very deliberate decision not to do so. In England, everybody must be on the pavement at 10 o'clock at night, whether they are halfway through a meal or have just begun to drink. They must be outside at 10 p.m. and as you have seen in other places, that is clearly causing difficulties of public order and of public health. We decided to take exactly the opposite case here in Wales. People have time after 10 o'clock to complete what they are eating and drinking, and to leave in an orderly way, spread out over that period. Exactly the opposite case obtains in Wales to the one suggested in the question.

Llywydd, let me say that I am very committed to having an election in May of next year. That is absolutely the right thing; that is what I think should happen. It is not right that this Senedd should be extended beyond its current term. I feel very strongly that the Senedd needs a democratic refresh. The opportunity for people in Wales to decide whom they wish to represent them in future should be in their hands, and it should be in their hands in May of next year.

The only point I'd put to the Member is this: none of us knows what the state of coronavirus will be at that time. Just as I want there to be an election, I want there to be an election where every Welsh citizen feels confident about being able to participate, and is not put off from participation by fears that they may have about the risks that they would run to their health if coronavirus were once again to be at a very, very difficult pitch.

So, May is a very long way away, and none of us is in a position to be able to look into that crystal ball. I share the Member's determination that we should vote in May of next year, but I simply put that one point to him: that we want an election in which every Welsh citizen feels that they can go to the polling station and is not put off from doing so because the state of public health at the time might be very off-putting to them. It's just foolish not to be willing to contemplate that and to think about how we would cope with it were we to be faced by it.