3., 4., 5. & 6. The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No 2) (Wales) (Amendment) (No 10) (Rhondda Cynon Taf) Regulations 2020, The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 2) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 8) (Caerphilly) Regulations 2020, The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 2) (Wales) (Amendment) (No. 11) (Blaenau Gwent, Bridgend, Merthyr Tydfil and Newport etc.) Regulations 2020 and The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (Functions of Local Authorities etc.) (Wales) Regulations 2020

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 3:20 pm on 29 September 2020.

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Photo of Vaughan Gething Vaughan Gething Labour 3:20, 29 September 2020

Thank you, Llywydd. I thank the Members for their contribution to the debate. I'll try to deal with each one in turn briefly. Starting with Andrew R.T. Davies, I obviously regret the approach that he and his group are taking. From what they say, they're abstaining not because they disagree with the measures or that the measures that are being put in place are somehow not appropriate, but it's a question about process rather than outcome in terms of how we keep people in Wales safe.

I can absolutely say, hand on heart, to any and every person in Wales that there is nothing cavalier in our approach. It takes a huge amount of time, energy and effort from Ministers, our officials and colleagues in local authorities, who also have incredibly difficult choices to make right across the political spectrum. We've worked very hard with them, with the police and, indeed, with our health service in coming up with and trying to understand the pattern of infection that is taking place. Rather than searching for conflict, I think that elected representatives should be searching for an answer to how we try to suppress the virus and to protect Wales from harm. 

It's also worth confirming, of course, that we're taking an approach to making these regulations that takes account of our processes here in Wales. The main affirmative procedure requires these regulations to have the support of the Senedd or they fall. Of course, in England, the equivalent regulations are introduced by ministerial decrees without Parliament needing to vote on them. I think our process is absolutely democratically more superior and provides deliberate and regular scrutiny, as it is meant to do. 

The First Minister confirmed the issues about travel and the travel restrictions. I am required to be here because it's not reasonably practical for me to do all of my job without a range of other officials here as well. On other days, I will be undertaking work from home, when it's reasonably practical for me to do so. In terms of briefing Members, if there's been an oversight in the Member not being contacted, then that is definitely something for us to look at. That is not a deliberate attempt. We make, again, great efforts to speak to elected representatives across the political spectrum when we are having to make these choices as well. And on the point about closing time for the hospitality trade, it is in the regulations; it's 10 o'clock for ending of the sale of alcohol, and 10.20 p.m. in the evening when those premises must close. 

I take on board Rhun ap Iorwerth's points about looking for a local area within a council area where possible. That's exactly what we have done within Carmarthenshire, because Llanelli is a distinct area. If Llanelli was not part of Carmarthenshire we would not be contemplating taking action in Carmarthenshire looking at the rest of the rates that exist. We consider this every time we take forward the potential to introduce these regulations—whether it is possible to take an approach that is less than the whole local authority. On each occasion up to that point we found it wasn't really possible in line with the evidence of the spread of the virus across that local authority area. 

These are local restrictions for the county, they're not regional ones. So, it doesn't mean you can travel anywhere you like across the wider south Wales area where the restrictions are in place. It's within the individual local authority in which you live—again, on the point about a reasonable excuse that I'll come to later for travel. We do have a regular conversations with local authorities about what we are doing and why, and that'll continue to be the case. It's a deliberately pluralistic approach that we take. We don't simply decide to impose these measures and then inform local authorities of our decisions afterwards. The Member will know, I'm sure, from his own contacts, that that's been a very deliberate and careful approach that we've taken. 

On the point about testing that the Member made, we are now undertaking 10,000 to 11,000 tests a day across Wales. Now, 3,000 to 4,000 of those tests are Public Health Wales lab tests and we expect more of those to be introduced over the coming days as we both increase not just the number and access to places for testing to take place, but the volume of testing available as well. The Member will see, as we roll out not just more of those tests but the consistent lanes in drive-through centres I've previously announced, that also we're going to have a generation of walk-in centres, then we're also looking to have Public Health Wales tests available at those as well, to make sure we can not just plug the gaps being created by the lighthouse lab programme challenges at present, but we'll have extra capacity in any event within the field. We're also using our mobile testing resources as infection rates climb in different parts of Wales. 

In terms of Mick Antoniw's points, on the point about reasonable excuse to travel, I think we've done all that we can in terms of trying to set out the guidance that is available about what is and isn't a reasonable excuse for travel. The challenge is that, if we provide even more extensive and detailed guidance, we'll end up with a thicket of rules, and it's a challenge for us. We will consider the points made in the reports from the legislation and justice committee, but we do need to think about when we get to a point when it's still practical for people to understand—and some of this does rely on the judgment of individual members of the public about what really is a reasonable excuse, to think about how they comply with the regulations rather than looking for a way to avoid them. And on your point about the local authority regulations and the guidance, we'll look at the guidance to see if that's there; I take on board your point and I'll check to see what is publicly available and where it is. I also take on board the point about the clerical error in the laying of the regulations—that was a one-off, and we have written to the Llywydd, I believe, to confirm that that is the case. We'll make sure that the committee are aware of that in the formal response to your report.

Turning to Mark Reckless, he is being consistent—I don't agree with him and he doesn't agree with me, but he's consistent in the position he's taken throughout the course of these regulations. In terms of the rising tide, to give you the example of Torfaen that he particularly focused upon, seven days ago, the rate per 100,000 in Torfaen was 22.3, today it's 47.9; you can see a significant increase in levels of the virus. And because we understand that the headline rates are likely to be an underestimation of the real position—and that's partly because of the lag in lighthouse lab testing—we can plot from that the level of people who may not be coming forward for testing. 

The other point I think it's important to remember to look at is the positivity rates—the numbers of people in every 100 who are testing positive—and again, the rate in Torfaen has increased over the last seven and 14 days. It really does, I think, justify—and it's supported by all local stakeholders—the measures that have been taken. Admittedly, we'll debate and the Senedd will be asked to vote on those regulations for the Vale of Glamorgan, Torfaen and Neath Port Talbot in the future.

I think Neil Hamilton is, again, being consistent with his deliberately offensive reference in saying that south Wales had been turned into a gulag. I think people who have families who have suffered in actual gulags will find that deeply unpleasant and in no way an appropriate reference to make in the democratic choices that we are making here today, and in the threat that we face in a public health pandemic.

In terms of Neil McEvoy's comments, the challenge is broadly driven by indoor contact in hospitality venues, but in particular within the home. I think there was an attempt to say that we should not lock down areas and we should not introduce local restrictions within Wales, because others are not taking different action in other parts of the UK. I think doing nothing because others are not acting is to surrender our ability to make choices in Wales to protect and keep Wales safe. And I don't think that that's an appropriate course of action at all. I think there was also a misunderstanding of the point and the purpose of testing. I think that it may be worth his while reading the specific advice that we had from our technical advisory group. I think that may help with some of the comments he made. He then also said that it was important to isolate the virus, whilst demanding that we had no travel restrictions in place at all. I think that's entirely a real misunderstanding of what we are trying to achieve and the point and purpose of these regulations. So, a rather disappointing and misplaced contribution.

The regulations that have been debated today reflect the careful consideration of how we balance individual freedom with managing the continuing threat of coronavirus and it weighs very heavily on the minds of Ministers who are making these choices that we are making really significant choices about people's individual freedoms, whilst, of course, trying to do the right thing to keep Wales safe. Our approach has been guided as always be the advice of the chief medical officer and his department, our scientific advisers, the technical advisory group and the study they do of evidence from within Wales, across the UK and beyond. 

As I said, I believe that we're taking specific and proportionate action in response to the rising tide of coronavirus cases within specific local authority areas. But, to finish, each one of us has a continuing responsibility to make choices and to follow the measures to keep us, our families, our loved ones and our communities safe. That means to keep a distance from each other when we're out and about, to wash our hands often and to work from home wherever possible. We need to wear a face covering in indoor public places, we need to stay at home if we've got symptoms and while we're waiting for a test result, and we need to follow any local restrictions that are in place. I ask Members of the Senedd to support these regulations and do our part, as elected Members, to help keep Wales safe.