5. What discussions has the Counsel General had with other law officers regarding the full legislative devolution of justice to Wales? OQ55723

The Welsh Government has made, and continues to make, representations to the UK Government on issues relating to the justice system, including, importantly, the devolution of justice to Wales.

Thank you. The Lord Chancellor was very clear at the recent Legal Wales conference that a united Wales and England is best for the law. The current arrangements mean that we can share resources and efficiencies across the justice system, courts can learn from one another, and legal professionals have the freedom to practice from Cardiff to Carlisle, and Caernarfon to Canterbury. Even the Commission on Justice in Wales advised that the present system, where legal practitioners can practise in England and Wales, and the legal professions are jointly regulated, should be continued. Now, I believe that you have advised the same Legal Wales conference that the Welsh Government will be pursuing a course of devolution of justice, however, once in a position able to do so. So, Counsel General, will you tell our Senedd what is your vision for the future of justice in Wales? What is holding you back at present? And, do you acknowledge the benefits of the current arrangements, as highlighted by the Lord Chancellor?

Well, I'm very grateful to the Member for giving me the opportunity of spelling out my vision for the devolution of justice in Wales—we may be some time. But, just to give a summary of the position, I think that the work of the Thomas commission, established by the former First Minister, is an exemplary analysis. It's hard to imagine a weightier set of contributions to the debate than that report represents. It is genuinely important in the history of devolution in Wales. It makes the case very elegantly and in a way that anybody with a mind to evidence will find it a challenge to contradict.

I'm encouraged that the Lord Chancellor has emphasised, at every opportunity, that what matters to him is outcomes and not process. So, I would be very keen to continue the discussions that we've begun to have with the UK Government, which will focus on improving outcomes for people in Wales, which I know is her concern, as is mine. I heard the remarks of the Lord Chancellor, and he talked about sharing efficiencies. Of course, what that has meant in Wales is the decimation of the funding for the justice system. That's what the sharing of efficiencies has meant in practice.

I would also take the opportunity, which she kindly gives me, to make it quite clear that the Welsh Government's position on the devolution of justice to Wales poses no threat at all to the ability of lawyers qualified in the currently conjoined jurisdiction of England and Wales to continue practising in the other into the future. There is no reason whatsoever why there should be any restriction on practitioners in either jurisdiction operating fully in the other. Certainly, that is the position that we would advocate here and have advocated to the commission itself. The only point that I was making about coming back to this topic in future is to recognise the realities, which I know that she will herself recognise, that the focus of the Government in Westminster, as in Wales, has in recent months obviously been on the response to COVID. And, with the best will in the world, the discussions we would have liked to have been able to have in relation to advancing the devolution of justice in Wales have not been able to be progressed at the pace that, certainly, I would like to see happening. But I hope, very soon, that we will be able to return to those discussions constructively.

I'm grateful to the Counsel General for his clear explanation of that vision. It's one, he won't be surprised to know, that I share. I hope, in the conversations that he's having with the United Kingdom Government and with the Lord Chancellor, that they will emphasise the outcomes that we've seen during this last year in the way that the coronavirus has affected Welsh prisons, that we've not seen the ability to provide a holistic approach to the treatment of people, both in terms of their time in the secure estate and also of how people are released back into the community. The failure of probation services is, of course, the obvious example of that. In coming to his conclusions, I hope that the Lord Chancellor will recognise that what is important is what is important for the people of Wales and not what is important for the Lord Chancellor.

I thank Alun Davies for that supplementary and for his long-standing support for the cause of devolution of justice in Wales. I will say that, in the last few months, I do think that people's understanding in Wales of how the justice system operates and how the Welsh Government and Senedd legislate, and how those laws are policed by a reserved police force, if you like—. I think people have gained a deeper and broader understanding of the potential for justice decisions to be taken here in Wales and I think that, in very dark circumstances, that has been a positive development in terms of people's understanding. I would also like to say that in the ability of the Welsh Government to work with the police, obviously, but also the prison service, the court service and a number of other, as it were, reserved authorities within the justice system, there has been an incredible amount of joint working in a very joined-up way in the course of the last few weeks and months, but that has happened despite the justice arrangements that we have, not because of them. It has happened because of the efforts that individuals have made to make that set of relationships work, and I think it is, in a sense, an indication to us of how much more we could achieve in terms of that joined-up thinking if we had a devolution settlement that made it easier, rather than harder.