3. Statement by the First Minister: Health Protection Measures Post Firebreak

– in the Senedd at 2:52 pm on 3 November 2020.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 2:52, 3 November 2020

(Translated)

That statement is next, namely the statement by the First Minister on health protection measures after the firebreak period. I call on the First Minister to make his statement. First Minister.

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour

(Translated)

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I'd like to thank you for the opportunity to present this statement to the Senedd on the next steps after the current firebreak period. I can confirm that the current restrictions will come to an end next Monday, 9 November. As we all know, we face a new context following the decisions of the UK Government on Saturday.

Llywydd, I don't want to criticise the decisions of other Governments in the United Kingdom. Each one of us is doing our best to respond to the present crisis. We have to consider the effect of the virus on individuals, on the health service and on the economy, we have to weigh up evidence that changes on a day-to-day basis, and each Government in the UK is answerable to the Parliament it serves. 

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 2:53, 3 November 2020

Llywydd, I should put the decisions about the period beyond the firebreak in the context of the latest figures we have on coronavirus in Wales, which indicate the seven-day incidence of the virus for the whole of Wales lies at 259 cases per 100,000 people, with the incidence increasing in all but a handful of our local authority areas. This pan-Wales picture underpins the need for national measures as we come out of the firebreak period. 

Earlier today, Llywydd, the chief executive of NHS Wales reported on the impact of the virus on our health service. There are currently 1,275 COVID-related patients in Welsh hospitals, 18 per cent higher than last week, and the highest number since late April. We expect this rising trend to continue until the impact of the firebreak is felt. In spite of this increasing pressure, our hospitals continue to provide planned activity, with cancer referrals returning to expected levels and the number of new out-patients 75 per cent higher in September than in April. Our actions have been designed not simply to protect our NHS’s ability to provide care to COVID patients, but to go on doing all those other things that matter so much to patients across Wales.

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 2:55, 3 November 2020

During the firebreak, we have taken steps to strengthen our response to the virus and to implement our NHS winter protection plan. Innovations such as the accident and emergency booking service here in Cardiff and the Vale will be accelerated in other parts of Wales, and our local health boards continue to work on plans to make the best use of our field hospital capacity. Our test, trace, protect service continues to perform strongly in dealing with significantly increased case numbers, and its resources have been increased. New local test centres have been opened to improve access, including to students, and more such local centres are planned. Innovations are being developed to increase lab capacity and to enable point-of-care testing, which could be particularly valuable in hospital and care home settings. As I said earlier this afternoon, the health Minister will update Members on new testing technologies in the coming days.

Llywydd, during the past week we have continued the consultative approach we have deployed throughout this pandemic, talking to partners before we make decisions, not simply informing them once decisions have been made. I am grateful to all those who have contributed to these discussions: the social partnership council, which has met twice in extraordinary meetings, including trade unions, businesses and other partners; the inter-faith forum; the Welsh Local Government Association and local authority leaders; the Wales Council for Voluntary Action and the third sector council; the police and crime commissioners and chief constables of the Welsh police forces; and to young people from Children in Wales, and many, many others. Llywydd, all these partners will be directly affected by the regulations we make this week and each has contributed to shaping them. We will finalise the regulations once we have heard from Senedd Members as a result of this statement today.

The result is that, from 9 November, we will introduce a national response, with one set of rules for the whole of Wales. These will enable aspects of Welsh life to resume, but the virus has not gone away and it is only through behaving responsibly and protecting each other that we will make the necessary headway in coming out of this emergency. Llywydd, from Monday, we propose changing the law in Wales in the following ways: churches, temples, synagogues and other places of worship will be able to reopen as they were before the firebreak period. Community centres will also reopen. Universities will continue to operate as they have during the firebreak, and schools and colleges will be able to welcome back all pupils and students. Shops, gyms and all other premises open to the public required to close during the firebreak will reopen. But, in all these premises and in workplaces, the legal requirement to take all reasonable measures to minimise the risk of exposure to coronavirus will continue to apply in order to protect staff and customers alike. This includes pubs, cafes and restaurants. These will reopen, but our clear advice to people in Wales is that we should visit these places in as small a group as possible, and, for many, this will only be the people we live with. But we have listened carefully to what young people and single people especially have told us about how important it is to be able to meet some friends and other family members. Our intention is that the regulations will allow groups of up to four people to meet in a regulated setting such as a restaurant, cafe or pub, but that this will be subject to strict protections discussed with the hospitality sector, including advance booking, time-limited slots and verified identification. Llywydd, as in all aspects of our lives, maintaining the basics of good hygiene and keeping our distance will be crucial in these settings, too.

This is one of the most challenging changes from a public health perspective, and we will keep it under continuous review. Its success will depend upon the actions of the sector and of every Welsh citizen in using this reopening responsibly and sparingly. And, Llywydd, the 10 p.m. end on alcohol sales will remain in place in Wales.

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 3:00, 3 November 2020

Llywydd, as a result of the many discussions we have held over the last 10 days, we are very aware of the need to provide opportunities for social contact in the coming winter months. Organised activities for groups of up to 15 people indoors and 30 people outdoors will be allowed once the firebreak period ends. But, once again, risk assessments will be needed to be carried out in advance, and all reasonable measures taken to minimise the risk of contracting or spreading the virus, and these activities will not be able to involve the sale or consumption of alcohol. There will be a separate exception for up to 15 people to attend a reception for a wedding or civil partnership or a funeral wake, and children under 11 will not count towards the limits on meeting others in these regulated settings.

I turn, Llywydd, now to another very challenging area: the extent to which we should meet one another in our own homes, a setting where we know coronavirus continues to spread and to take hold. As a result, beyond the firebreak period, at home, including in gardens, people will only be able to meet others from their extended household, and that extended household will be limited to just two households coming together. If we are to make the most of the gains the firebreak period has created, then we must avoid the riskier types of behaviour beyond that period altogether. House parties, larger events and gatherings indoors will be unlawful, and we will make this absolutely explicit in our regulations.

Llywydd, so that we can keep the new national rules as simple as possible, we will not return to local travel restrictions. People will be able to travel anywhere within Wales, but, once again, we ask people to approach the issue of travel responsibly, to stay close to home and continue to limit their contact with others. Permission to travel is not an instruction to travel, and the way in which we behave in this area of our lives too will be reviewed in the weeks that follow the firebreak period.

While the English lockdown is in place, travel to and from England will be prohibited by the English regulations unless that is for an essential reason such as work or education and, recognising that Wales will come out of the firebreak as a high prevalence area of the UK, we will also place travel restrictions on people leaving or entering Wales until those rates come down. International travel will not be allowed without a reasonable excuse.

Llywydd, as we are about to enter the next stage in our national effort to control the virus, at the heart of that effort is the way in which each and every one of us go about each and every aspect of our lives. We all need to take steps to keep each other safe. I know that the vast majority of people in Wales have made huge sacrifices to live within the rules before the firebreak. I am so grateful to all of them. And over this winter period, we must all be prepared to live our lives differently so that the effort we have made together is not wasted and we do not find ourselves in this position once again. We must all keep our contacts with one another to an absolute minimum, keep the circle of people we meet with as small as possible, and consider all those other ways in which we can continue to keep in touch.

Llywydd, in the weeks after 9 November we will have more evidence of the impact of the firebreak. We will review these measures to check that they are proportionate and effective. But we must be under no illusion. After the firebreak ends, the virus will not have ended. In the weeks ahead we must ask ourselves not, 'What can I do?', but, 'What should I do?' to keep ourselves and others in Wales safe from what goes on being a terrible disease. Llywydd, diolch yn fawr.

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative 3:05, 3 November 2020

Can I thank the First Minister for his comprehensive statement this afternoon? The new measures announced yesterday by the Welsh Government to follow the current Wales-wide lockdown period, of course, provide some clarity, and what we've heard from the First Minister this afternoon has provided further clarity, however there are still some outstanding issues and concerns that need further information so that we can better understand what we should and shouldn't do from next week.

Firstly, I appreciate the steps that the Government is taking to allow two households to form a bubble in Wales. For so many communities across the country, the ability to meet with another household will be very welcome and gives some comfort to those who have not seen family members for some time. 

Now, your announcement is very clear that schools across Wales will reopen from Monday, and I'm sure you'll agree with me that it's vitally important that children and students are able to return to the classroom, provided the evidence shows that it's safe to do so. Of course, it's important that we better understand how the virus may or may not be transmitted in school and university settings. So, in light of the reopening of education providers, I'd be grateful if you could tell us a bit more about the assessment that has been made of the transmission of the virus in those settings and how that's impacted the Government's policy.

The Welsh Government statement also makes it clear that working from home will become even more important, and I know that the Welsh Government has already been considering a shift towards more homeworking across Wales. Whilst there are benefits to homeworking, there are also economic consequences for high streets and town centres, and there are also some valid concerns over the mental health impact of homeworking on some people. Therefore, can you tell us what discussions the Welsh Government has already had with public service providers, local authority leaders and indeed others about the Welsh Government's remote working policy and the economic impact, and indeed the mental health impact that homeworking may have in the longer term?

It is absolutely vital that, moving forward, mental health is prioritised by the Welsh Government, whether that's in relation to carers, children and young people, or indeed older people. Given that the virus is still prevalent in many communities across Wales, and as a result, freedoms for so many people have been restricted for some time, will the Welsh Government now develop a longer term mental health strategy that reflects the challenges that the virus presents? 

Of course, underpinning the new post-firebreak measures is a need to ensure that businesses across Wales can access the support that they need. We all know of businesses that are struggling to survive the pandemic and it's clear that many will need more support in the coming months. Now, as I said earlier today, many businesses have been under some form of Government restriction not just for the two-week firebreak period, but in some cases for a significantly longer period of time, and so it's vital that the Welsh Government is listening to their concerns and helping them find and access the support they need quickly. Can you therefore confirm, First Minister, what changes are being made to ensure businesses are aware of the support on offer and are able to get the help that they need during this time?

I know that Ministers have been having ongoing discussions with the hospitality sector about the rules for reopening, and I welcome the news that hospitality will reopen to allow groups of up to four individuals to meet in a regulated setting. Today's statement says that this will be under constant review, and I appreciate that this will have to be monitored very carefully, however, can you confirm when you will be reviewing this measure and can you tell us how you'll be engaging with businesses across the country to ensure that the measure is the right one going forward?

When the Welsh Government announced the firebreak lockdown, it made it clear that the two-week period was absolutely essential in delivering significant improvements to its processes, and whilst I accept that we've still got a week to go, it's really important that the people of Wales can see those improvements and understand how the Welsh Government has used the time during the lockdown to make the necessary changes. There has been some information already given about work done in relation to the testing system, which is very welcome, and you've confirmed today in your statement that new test centres have been opened and more are planned, but perhaps you could tell us a bit more about that and what other work that has already taken place during the firebreak period in relation to the Welsh Government's testing programme, and what more we can expect to take place over the next few days and in the coming weeks.

First Minister, you will have seen the worrying news that there have been another 30 deaths linked to COVID-19 infections caught inside four hospitals, and it's clear urgent action is needed to address that. Today's statement says that local health boards continue to work on plans to make the best use of our field hospital capacity. Can you therefore update us on how that work is going and when we can begin to see that capacity become available?

And finally, Llywydd, I want to place on record my sincere thanks to our outstanding NHS staff and our third sector organisations and charities who have continued to do so much to support people across Wales in what has been a very difficult time. And, First Minister, I know you'll join me in thanking them for their efforts over the past few months. Thank you.

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 3:10, 3 November 2020

Llywydd, I thank Paul Davies for those questions and I absolutely do associate myself with his last remarks. I'll try and answer as quickly as I can a number of the specific questions he raised.

As to schools reopening, the evidence does continue to evolve all the time, and it's another area where we have to be prepared to adapt our response if it were necessary, if different evidence were to emerge. But at present, the evidence we have continues to be that younger children particularly do not suffer themselves from coronavirus or spread it to other people in significant numbers. And we've now had a full half-term of schools being back in Wales, and, again, the evidence is predominantly that where there have been cases in schools, it has been because people have contracted the virus outside the school setting, and that intra-school transmission has not been a significant feature of the way in which schools in Wales have experienced the last six weeks. That is a tribute to all the work that is done by teaching and non-teaching staff in all those settings, to keep themselves and their students safe. And while that continues to be the evidence, then I agree with what Paul Davies said about making children and their education our top priority, and trying to make sure that whatever other restrictions we have to impose on life here in Wales that we put them and their futures right at the top of our list.

Paul Davies referred to the ongoing mental health impact of the crisis, and that is true in all parts of our lives, and it does have an impact on people, some people who work from home. It's why we've been keen to emphasise that our approach to remote working is not that a certain percentage of people will always be in work full-time and the other people will always be working from home; it's a blended approach in which people are able to spend some of the working week working remotely and other parts of the working week in their normal place of work. And when you add all that up, he knows that for the Welsh Government, we've thought of 30 per cent as a working hypothesis for the number of people who are able to work successfully from home, being at home during this crisis. And that, I think, is designed to respond to the fact that, for some people, working from home without the chance to be sometimes in the workplace does come at a toll to people's sense of mental health and well-being. My colleague Eluned Morgan, who now has responsibility for mental health services in Wales, will be talking with Members, as she has been, I know, talking to a very wide range of interests, about a longer term sense of how we can respond to the mental health impact of the crisis, which will not be over during the crisis itself. As we know, there are some long-term impacts from coronavirus, both physical, but also in terms of people's well-being.

As for business support, of course I recognise, as Paul Davies said, that many businesses in Wales have been living with restrictions for more than two weeks. Across our border in England, Leicester has been under restrictions for the best part of three months, and finds itself now facing a four-week lockdown. No Government takes these decisions lightly. All Governments are—as I said at the start of my statement—having to juggle these impossible dilemmas between lives and livelihoods, between our health and our economic futures. Here in Wales, we'll continue to develop our business support offer to make it available through the Business Wales website. And in all the conversations we have, whether that is through the social partnership council or whether it's through—as I was able to do yesterday—speaking at the Confederation of British Industry's annual conference, we take all the opportunities that are there to talk to the business community and to make sure we understand their perspectives and to gather their support. We will review the measures we put in place for the post-firebreak period after two weeks. I'm happy to provide that confirmation for hospitality businesses and others.

We've used this period, as Paul Davies says, to introduce changes in a number of the services, including further strengthening our TTP services. Just for reasons of time, Llywydd, I'll just mention one further way in which we're doing that. We're going to create a central surge capacity—a team that can be deployed in any part of Wales when the system comes under particular pressures because of local flare-ups. And as far as the field hospital capacity is concerned, it's already being used in Cwm Taf Morgannwg, where Ysbyty'r Seren is open and taking patients. We will be learning, in all parts of Wales, from ways in which that early experience can be put to best use elsewhere.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 3:16, 3 November 2020

(Translated)

Leader of Plaid Cymru, Adam Price.

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru

Diolch, Llywydd. Thank you, First Minister, for the statement and for the announcement yesterday, which I know would have been welcomed by so many people across Wales, not least my own mother and father, who are looking forward to being reconnected with their grandchild. I'm sure that's felt in many, many families across Wales.

Your own economy and transport Minister has said that the current firebreak is unlikely to be the last in Wales, and that another Wales-wide lockdown is looking likely in the new year. Do you agree that we should set it as an agreed goal that, as far as humanly possible, this should be the last national lockdown? Now, of course, as you've been rightly stressing, we all have a part to play as individuals and as a community in making that possible, but there are some things, of course, that only Government can do. You've referred to the test and trace system, which is absolutely central to this, and you've said a little bit about what you've been doing during the firebreak, but I was wondering if you could say what level of improvement you plan to make in the crucial 24-hour turnaround target in getting the test results back to people, which is absolutely central to making it an effective protection in terms of preventing a further exponential rise in cases.

I was wondering, as well, if you could say whether you have reconsidered the issue of the testing of asymptomatic contacts, as other countries are already doing, because we know from scientific evidence now that asymptomatic transmission is a very, very important element within the spread of the virus. And when do you think we'll be in a position where we could see population-wide testing, which, as I referred to earlier, has been happening over the weekend in Slovakia, and is being proposed in the city of Liverpool? On contact tracing as well, are we likely to see an increasing emphasis on backward as well as forward contact tracing, which is important in terms of identifying the sources of infection, and have you looked at the adoption of the three-tier contract tracing system, which has proven such a successful element in Vietnam?

On vaccines, Scotland, it's been reported, is preparing to start vaccinating in six weeks' time. Are you also working hard to shorten the timelines as far as possible so we can get vaccinations potentially under way in December? I'm mindful, First Minister, of the lighthouse lab failure or fiasco. Are we making our own independent plans in Wales so we're not reliant on the UK taskforce, headed by another Boris Johnson political appointee? And in relation to the Prime Minister's comments yesterday—because the economic policy, of course, needs to work in tandem with the health policy—that furlough and other economic support would be available to the devolved administrations when they required them, it was contradicted today by the housing and local government Secretary, Robert Jenrick, who said that it would be a matter for the Chancellor. What is your understanding of the latest position of the UK Government in this regard?

Finally, we've advocated, as we emerge out of the firebreak, a slow and steady approach, rather than a sudden relaxation of restrictions, in order to ensure that we secure the hard-won gains. Can you say, First Minister, what the current scientific advice says as to what the infection rate, R, will be next Monday? What is the latest understanding of the R figure? Do you believe, or is the scientific advice to you currently, that the current framework that you've announced today will be enough to keep that crucial R rate below 1 so we don't end up in the position of having to have a further cycle of lockdown and release?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 3:21, 3 November 2020

(Translated)

I'd like to thank Adam Price for those questions.

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour

I thank him both for his general sentiments of support over recent days and for the opportunity to discuss some of the measures we have announced with Members of his party. All I can say to him is what I've said to other people in relation to what will happen in the future, which is that we're not in a position of being able to rule anything in or anything out. The future is so inherently uncertain that anybody who says to you that something will definitely be needed or definitely not be needed in eight weeks' time really is relying on nothing more than a crystal ball, and I don't think people in Wales would be grateful to us if we tried to proceed in that way.

I thought Adam Price made an important point, Llywydd, when he said that there are things that only Governments can do and there are things that only each one of us can do in our own lives, and we have to maximise both of those things. There are a number of things that we have been doing to respond to some of the points that Adam Price mentioned. We are part of the whole-town testing experiment that is being carried out in Liverpool, in the sense that we will be able to gather the learning from that direct. I think there will be a lot to learn from the first time around that track to see if we can then apply the approach that emerges from that experiment in parts of Wales where that would be useful to us.

The asymptomatic testing and the population-wide testing, I think, are very much linked to the next generation of tests that may become available and that Vaughan Gething will report on further later this week. What I don't want to do is fall into the trap that I see others making of saying to people in Wales, 'Oh, there is some magic solution just around the corner, there is a test, there is a vaccine, there is something that will just get us out of jail free on this.' I think people have become allergic to being told, 'Oh, it'll all be over in 12 weeks', 'It'll all be over by Christmas', 'It'll all be over by the spring', 'There's something just about to happen; just you wait, it'll all be okay.' People don't believe it and they're right not to believe it. This is a long, hard slog, in which we're all going to have to play our part, not just for the next few days or the next few weeks, but well into next year.

Then, when these new opportunities do come our way, we will, of course, want to deploy them, and deploy them to make life easier for people—through backward contact tracing, which is already happening in our TTP system in Wales, for exactly the reason that Adam Price said. We know that there are superspreader individuals and events that can be responsible for a hugely disproportionate number of new infections, and that's why we are doing all of that. We have independent plans for distribution of a vaccine once it becomes available, but, again, I don't want to suggest to people in Wales that the first vaccines that will become available will be the sort that they're most familiar with—a flu vaccine that lasts for a whole year or an MMR vaccine that lasts for a whole lifetime. The early vaccines that are likely to become available will confer some immunity for some period of time, and they won't be what people, I think, thinking of other experiences in their lives, might be expecting.

On furlough, it is deeply disappointing that we're back in confusion, having had it clarified, as it seemed yesterday, by the Prime Minister. UK Government Ministers were pressed hard by Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales in a COBRA meeting yesterday to make sure that we have the clarity that we need, that it cannot possibly be only English Ministers who can declare a public health emergency and invoke a furlough scheme. I thought what the Prime Minister said yesterday in the House of Commons was very helpful to that, and on this one, what the Prime Minister says really does need to go.

We won't know the R figure for next Monday for a couple of weeks beyond next Monday, because R is a lagging indicator. That's why I've always said we won't know how effective the firebreak period has been until weeks afterwards. 'Will it be enough?', Adam Price quite properly asks. Well, my answer can only be this, Llywydd: it will only be enough if every one of us does everything we are asked to do, both the things that Government can do, but also the things we can only do in our own lives, because Governments by themselves cannot solve this crisis. It's how we behave in our own homes, in our workplaces, when we are outside and in other regulated settings that, in the end, drives this virus and puts other people at risk. We can all do things that minimise that risk. We can all do things that maximise that risk. If we do the right things and ask ourselves, as I said, 'What should I be doing?', then it can be enough.

Photo of Alun Davies Alun Davies Labour 3:26, 3 November 2020

If I could, First Minister—I'm grateful to you for your statement this afternoon—continue the theme of business support. Many people, of course, welcome what you've said over the last few days, and welcome the sense of personal responsibility and that tone that you've introduced into the public debate on this, but I hear from a lot of small businesses and self-employed people who are very, very anxious to find the balance between maintaining their businesses, maintaining employment, maintaining the services they provide to local people, but also being able to do that in a safe way through these extremely difficult times. The chaos that we've seen in Westminster over the last few days—the Prime Minister saying that furlough was available yesterday, being told by his Ministers today that he was wrong yesterday—means that, as we speak today, we don't know what the policy of the Treasury is, and whether they've told the Prime Minister what his policy is. So, we need some coherence and some sense of seamless support for people, and the ERF support from the Welsh Government has offered that. I think many of us would be grateful to see that ERF support reopened and available to businesses as soon as possible.

The second point, First Minister, is this: you've just answered Adam Price on the issue of test and trace, and for me it's one of the great successes, if you like, of how the Government has dealt with this. I think it's fair to say that the Government has spent something like £102 million in Wales on it, which represents £32 per head, and is reaching 80 per cent and 90 per cent of the people it needs to. Across the border in England, where it's been privatised, of course, they're spending £12 billion, £1,700 per head, and not reaching the same number of people. So, that demonstrates the power of values in action. It demonstrates the power of the public sector—health boards, the Welsh Government and local government—working together. Can you perhaps explain to us, First Minister, your vision of how test and trace will provide us with an opportunity to control the transmission of the virus, to break the transmission of the virus, and to allow us to have regulations that recognise that test and trace is able, through its power, to ensure that we're able to control the spread of the virus? Thank you very much, Presiding Officer.

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 3:29, 3 November 2020

Llywydd, diolch yn fawr to Alun Davies. I absolutely recognise what he said about the way so many businesses have worked so hard to make sure that they can continue in these difficult times, but to do it in a way that is safe for their staff and for their users, and that is the experience of most businesses in Wales. Where there are businesses who don't operate in that way, then the Welsh Government will take action against them, because that is not fair, both to their staff and to their users, but it's not fair to other businesses either, who have made the effort that we asked them to make. 

And in terms of fairness, let me say as well that, not only has the uncertainty about the furlough scheme been deeply unhelpful, but the fact that when we asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give some flexibility to businesses in Wales as we went into our firebreak period, we were told that that was impossible, but when the English Government, in that capacity, decided to introduce a lockdown, suddenly all that was possible after all. And what strikes people in Wales about that is that it simply is not fair when one part of the United Kingdom is denied help and another part has it available to them. The Treasury is the Treasury for the whole of the United Kingdom, not just one part of it, and it needs to recapture some ground that it has lost because of the way in which it has behaved in that partisan way over recent weeks. 

I completely agree with Alun Davies that the TTP system has been a great success story here in Wales. Every pound that we put into it goes into the public service. There's no money skimmed off the top of it for private profit making, as there inevitably is in England. And that is because of our values, because we believe that this is a public service best provided by people who work in the public service, and with that public service ethos, but it gives us value for money, as you heard as well. Now, we will continue to recruit more people in our local teams. We will provide that surge capacity I mentioned earlier. And as we come out of the firebreak period, we will look again to the enormous efforts our TTP teams have made, doing more in backward tracing, now having a new set of tools, both to persuade people to self-isolate, and to explain to them the consequences of not doing so, and to prepare for the time when, as I say, a new generation of tests may become available that could allow us to reduce the length of time that we ask people to self-isolate and that could allow us to do more in asymptomatic testing, as Adam Price mentioned earlier. And all of that thought is going on as we speak in our TTP system, so that we use this 17 days of the firebreak not just to gather our breath in TTP, but to prepare for new possibilities and an even bigger contribution that it could make here in Wales in the future. 

Photo of Caroline Jones Caroline Jones UKIP 3:33, 3 November 2020

Thank you for your statement, First Minister. We have seen lockdowns do untold damages to the lives and livelihoods of the Welsh public, and particularly the poorest in our society, because many vulnerable in society have been left behind. People have lost employment and businesses have closed. And whilst I appreciate we have to strike the correct balance, going forward, First Minister, will you pledge to do all that you can to avoid countrywide lockdowns in future, because we have to learn to live with the SARS-CoV-2 virus if Wales is to avoid a crippling depression and debt that will take generations to recover from? Our poorest in society must also not be allowed to become poorer at the end of this lockdown, and the best way to live with the virus is better testing, so that we can isolate the sick rather than isolate the healthy also during lockdown.

So, First Minister, do you plan to dramatically scale up testing from a few thousand tests a day to several tens of thousands? Countries that have the disease on the back foot have adopted mass testing, and I'd like to ask if this is also the Welsh Government's goal. And I'd also like to place on record our thanks to all in the NHS who have kept us safe during this time, but also to the many shopkeepers, delivery drivers, staff in other services, such as the prison service, who have also provided meals and very many necessary services to people less fortunate than ourselves. Diolch yn fawr. 

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 3:35, 3 November 2020

Caroline Jones is absolutely right to remind us that there are front-line workers in many aspects of life here in Wales, people who have kept serving food, people who have collected our refuse, social workers who continue to go out and make sure that vulnerable children and older people are looked after. Right across the public service, people have been willing to put themselves at risk in order to protect other people, and it's right that we recognise that this afternoon. And I also recognise Caroline Jones's starting point, of course, that there's more than one form of harm from coronavirus. And everything we do is a very, very challenging matter of trying to strike that balance. I don't myself sign up to the proposition that the way to get through coronavirus is to isolate the sick, or to try and keep people who are vulnerable out of society, so that everybody else can carry on with their lives. Personally, I don't think that is an ethical position to take. But even if you didn't have ethical qualms about it, it's not a practical way either, because those people have so many connections with other people in their lives. It doesn't work, as well as being unacceptable.

I've referred a number of times this afternoon to the potential that there are new testing opportunities ahead of us. And I just want to emphasise again that that is a potential, it is not an actual. There is still a lot of work going on, on the reliability of those tests, of how those tests can be successfully administered, the use that could be put to them. Nobody should think that we're just around the corner from, as I say, some sort of magic breakthrough. But undoubtedly there will be new possibilities in the future, and it will allow us, as Caroline Jones said, to make different choices and to protect people in new ways. And everything we do as a Welsh Government is designed to do two things. It's designed to deal with the here and now—that's why we are expanding the number of current tests, why we now have labs working 24 hours a day here in Wales—but also to prepare for the future, and to make sure that we are right up to date with all those possible developments, and to make sure that, when they are genuinely available, we're ready to take advantage of them in Wales.

Photo of Andrew RT Davies Andrew RT Davies Conservative 3:37, 3 November 2020

Thank you, First Minister, for your statement. Three quick points out of the statement, if I may. You talked about hospitals being able to undertake normal NHS work. It's important that we understand what the waiting times are and what the performance targets are. Will you commit to restarting the publication of these target times, so that we can assess the waiting times and the target times that the NHS is performing against?

Secondly, when it comes to the Dragon's Heart Hospital that was in the Principality Stadium, and the barn at the Vale of Glamorgan, for Cardiff and Vale residents obviously these two facilities have been taken out of action now, and the field hospital that's set to replace them will not be available until February. How is the Welsh Government working with Cardiff and Vale health board to ensure that there is capacity within this area so that there isn't a shortfall?

And, thirdly, you talked at the latter end of your statement about restaurants and social facilities using verified identification. For most people, that would mean either a passport or driving licence. But can you clarify what would be acceptable in the terms that you use of 'verified identification'? And who is the onus on providing that to—is it the owner of the establishment, or at the point of booking, or at the point of entering the establishment? Thank you.

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 3:39, 3 November 2020

It's an inescapable fact, I'm afraid, that waiting times for many procedures in the NHS, in every part of the United Kingdom, are not what they were before we went into this pandemic. And I bitterly regret that because of the huge effort that has gone on in Wales, both through the funding that the Welsh Government has provided, but by front-line workers as well. We were in our best position since 2014 when the pandemic struck, and so much of that ground will now have been lost and will be very difficult to recover if we are unable to do all the things that we have talked about this afternoon in keeping coronavirus at bay. Because every day that more beds in our hospitals are taken up by coronavirus patients, every day there are more people in critical care beds with coronavirus, that inevitably narrows the scope for treatments to be offered to people for all the other things that are so necessary. We will look with others across the United Kingdom as to when it is sensible to reset expectations in the NHS, but I don't think we're in that position where we are today, where we are deep in—deep in—a public health crisis, which every Member in this Chamber will be well to recognise and to reflect in the public statements that they make on this matter. 

As far as Calon y Ddraig is concerned, then about half of the 5,000 extra beds that we have planned for this winter are to be found within the NHS by expanding capacity that's available within our existing system. So, it's about half that will come from new field hospital capacity and about half that will come in other ways, and our plans are in place, of course, with Cardiff and Vale to make sure that there are ways in which it will be able to respond should numbers go on rising. 

The final point that Andrew R.T. Davies makes is an important one. Of course, our regulated settings, our pubs, are very used to seeking identification. They do it all the time in order to make sure somebody is as old as they say they are in order to be able to order a drink. So, it's that sort of level of identification we're looking for, and part of this is driven, as I'm sure Andrew will understand, by the new border issue that has been created by having a closure of these establishments for four weeks in England and them open here, as we want them to be open here, in Wales. We have to find ways to support our English colleagues in preventing large numbers of people trying to cross the border in order to be able to get a drink when that is against the law in England. And being able to book ahead, and then provide verification of who you are, is one of the ways in which we will be able to support our colleagues elsewhere in the efforts they are now making to overcome the virus in other parts of the UK.

Photo of Helen Mary Jones Helen Mary Jones Plaid Cymru 3:42, 3 November 2020

I thank the First Minister for his statement and, as Adam Price has already said, the First Minister is aware that Plaid Cymru has broadly supported the need for the firebreak and advocated a cautious approach as we come out.

The First Minister referred to consultation in this process, and I think he will understand that there are some sectors of the hospitality sector who perhaps haven't felt as included in that consultation as they might have been. I ask him today if he can give further consideration, as rules and regulations need to change, to ensure that the broadest range possible of those businesses that are most affected are consulted at the earliest point possible as we move forward, and as he rightly reviews the effect that the firebreak has had and the lifting of the firebreak measures have. 

Specifically, the First Minister has referred to providing detailed guidance to the hospitality sector after today, and it is quite right, of course, that these discussions should take place in the Senedd and that the Government should finalise guidance after that. But can he tell us today when that detailed guidance will be available to hospitality businesses so that they can be clear about exactly what is expected of them? And specifically in that regard, can I ask him and the Welsh Government to ensure that details, when they are taken from customers, are securely kept and only used for proper purposes? I have heard of women, specifically young women, having had their contact details taken and then used by members of staff or management in hospitality businesses for inappropriate approaches. This I know was raised with Welsh Government as a risk, so can I ask him to ensure that, as what's required in terms of taking identification is made clear to businesses, a further emphasis is put on keeping that information secure and using it properly? 

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 3:44, 3 November 2020

You'll have to bring your contribution to a close now; you're out of time. Thank you, Helen Mary.  

Photo of Helen Mary Jones Helen Mary Jones Plaid Cymru

Can I just finally, then, ask, in terms of further business support, whether the First Minister can consider that that should perhaps be more targeted in future to those businesses most affected, rather than taking a first come, first served approach? 

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour

Thank you to Helen Mary Jones for those questions, and, as I said, I am grateful for the broad support that Plaid Cymru has offered to the direction that we have taken here in Wales. And I recognise what Helen Mary Jones said about the very diverse nature of the hospitality sector. As a Government, we have to rely generally on those representative bodies that exist within the sector, and we certainly have been talking to them, but, in a sector as diverse as hospitality, not every business is represented in that sort of forum. The speed at which we have to operate inevitably means that we rely on the existing networks that we are able to tap into. And that, in a way, is the tension we face in answering questions in guidance in the way that Helen Mary has quite properly asked, because the speed at which we're able to provide guidance is, to an extent, a reflection of the number of questions that come in from the sector asking for us to be able to find an answer to them. So, the more questions there are, the slower it tends to be, but we will try and get the guidance, of course, as quickly as possible.

Llywydd, I'm very anxious about what Helen Mary Jones said about the misuse of information being provided, and I'll certainly make sure that, after this statement is over, I'll make some enquiries myself about that. We would like people to use the NHS app as the basis for the way in which they collect information, because then it's guaranteed to be secure, and the more we can promote that and the more we can make it available, the less we will run the risk that Helen Mary Jones identified. And, of course, we will continue always to look to see whether further support for business can be made. And first come, first served is a very blunt instrument, I understand that, but, as she will know, thousands of people, thousands of businesses applied, even on that basis, and we will see what more can be done.

Photo of Mick Antoniw Mick Antoniw Labour 3:47, 3 November 2020

Can I thank the First Minister for his statement and say that I, obviously, also look forward to an opportunity to reconnect at some stage with my four grandchildren, and I suppose also to visiting my local pub and being asked to produce ID? Underage drinking is a scourge on our society.

Can I raise particularly the issues of well-being, of the mental welfare of our communities? And can I say that some of the measures that have been taken now, particularly with regard to gymnasia, with regard to religious gatherings, I think sport, dance, leisure centres and community centres—how important they are? Because they are amongst some of the institutions that have been incredibly well regulated, but also they contribute very substantially to the physical and, I think, the mental well-being of our communities. I think mental welfare is something that is really coming to the apex of some of our considerations as we go into the future months of various restrictions.

Can I ask the First Minister particularly about his contacts with the Health and Safety Executive and the trade unions, particularly in respect of the well-being of those tens of thousands of people who are now working from home, who previously wouldn't have been working from home, often in very non-ergonomic environments, but also the actual mental health risks that are there now from the considerable long hours and the fact that we now seem to be very heavily regulated by, or controlled by, Zoom and Teams and other technology, rather than the other way around? It seems to me that there hasn't been adequate consideration of that. Can I ask whether you think that now is the time that probably the Health and Safety Executive ought to be devolved within Wales, because it forms such an important part of our public health?

And can I say also then one further item, and that is the issue of gambling addiction? You'll be aware of the recent correspondence in The Lancet suggesting that we ought to have now gambling addiction clinics. We have a large proportion of our population now vulnerable and exposed to the continuous onslaught of gambling advertising, and this has significant, I think, consequences. We identify already increased access to gambling from many people across Wales and the consequences of this for the future are, I think, quite significant and need to be addressed as a serious public health issue, particularly linked with COVID now. Thank you, First Minister.

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 3:49, 3 November 2020

Llywydd, thank you, and I thank Mick Antoniw for those questions. I know that Mick Antoniw began with a slightly jocular remark, but, actually, Llywydd, we do, all of us, I think shy away a bit from saying much about the impact of coronavirus in our own lives and in the lives of the staff that we all employ in our own constituency capacities, and who I know have borne an enormous burden of the efforts we all of us try to make in our local capacities to answer people's questions, keep them well informed. But there is a mental health and well-being toll in all of that that elected representatives in our constituency roles, with our teams there, also experience. So, I've always thought, Llywydd, that one of the fantastic things about devolution in Wales is that the gap between those people who are elected and those people who elect us is much narrower than it is in many other legislatures, and that we live lives that are as full of the experiences that our fellow citizens have to experience as anybody else, and I think it does bring a different sort of richness to the type of discussion that we've been having this afternoon.

On the Health and Safety Executive and trade unions, we, of course—Mick Antoniw will know—have a new national health and safety forum in Wales until the time when the HSE is devolved. I'm very grateful to it for agreeing to participate in that forum and making sure that staff are available to contribute to those discussions, including the discussions of the health and well-being of people working from home. I'm certain that I am not the only person who, at the end of many days, suffers from Zoom fatigue, and I don't just mean that in terms of just the toll it takes on you, but just literally, where your eyes are burning and you feel you've stared at that screen for longer than is sensible for any one individual to do. And that is experienced by other people working from home. That's why the health and safety forum will take an interest in it; that's why we're accelerating our programme of local hubs, where people will be able to work remotely, but not within their own homes.

And the point on gambling addiction, which Mike Antoniw has made very regularly throughout the whole of the time he's been an Assembly Member, will have been heard by Eluned Morgan, and I'm sure that she will be happy to have a direct discussion with him on the particular impact of the coronavirus crisis on people who are at home and bombarded, as he said, by invitations and adverts trying to induce them, sometimes vulnerable people, to spend money in that way.

Photo of Mark Isherwood Mark Isherwood Conservative 3:53, 3 November 2020

We have three new grandchildren, all nearby, but two in England. You can imagine how we're feeling. Epilepsy Wales state there's currently no epilepsy surgery for children or adults in Wales, and there hasn't been for the last seven months. Can the First Minister tell us when this will change so that essential surgery can be provided to the highly vulnerable population of people with epilepsy who are living with uncontrolled seizures, with all the associated risk to health and life, where most other specialist centres across the UK have resumed essential epilepsy surgery for their patients with drug-resistant epilepsy?

Last month, Asthma UK and the British Lung Foundation Wales published a report on restoring basic care. Seventy per cent of their beneficiaries are managing an exacerbation of their symptoms, such as an asthma attack, themselves. Over 40 per cent report that their respiratory care has either been delayed or cancelled during the lockdown, and nearly a quarter are avoiding the NHS altogether, meaning that they're no longer managing their condition. As we now approach winter, when historic referral rates for lung disease admissions increase by 80 per cent, what actions will you now take, based on the recommendations from the report, to restore better access to basic care for thousands with a lung condition across Wales?

Last week, Macmillan Cancer Support launched their new report, 'The Forgotten 'C'? The impact of Covid-19 on cancer care', which detailed the diagnostic and treatment backlog that has developed. How do you therefore respond to the report's statement that the Welsh Government must prioritise and ring-fence cancer services during the second wave of the pandemic?

And, finally, further to your announcement that the border will be shut until the new lockdown in England ends on 2 December, what assurance can you give to Welsh students in term-time residence at universities in England that they will be able to come home to Wales for Christmas and the holiday season after university terms end early in December?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 3:55, 3 November 2020

Well, Llywydd, I will, of course, investigate the specific point that Mark Isherwood makes about epilepsy and will write to him on that. The general answer to all his enquiries has to be this, hasn't it: that our ability to go on resuming activity in the Welsh NHS other than coronavirus is entirely contingent upon the extent to which we are able to turn back the tide of coronavirus itself. And there are things that each one of us are able to do to help persuade the public to take this matter seriously and to abide by the restrictions that we are asking them to abide by, because, if we don't, and if we do things that discourage people from taking it seriously and abiding by regulations, then all we do is guarantee that more people will catch this disease and all the opportunities that Mark Isherwood has asked me about will diminish rather than increase. So, I look forward to his support, his wholehearted support, and that of his party, in the efforts that we are making here in Wales. My party in London will vote for the restrictions that the Prime Minister is extending in England. It would be very good if we were able to rely on the same sort of support for the actions we are taking in Wales from his party.

As for the issue to do with Christmas, I was pleased to agree, in the COBRA meeting yesterday, that there should be a further rapid meeting between the four nations of the United Kingdom in order to plan together for the Christmas period in order to deal with exactly the sort of issues that Mark Isherwood raised about students living on either side of the border during term time having homes to which they wish to return. That is an issue on which I think a four-nation approach is sensible, and I'm glad that the UK Government has agreed that we will have the sort of regular pattern of engagement that I have been calling for for many, many months in order to be able to work towards such a common plan and approach.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 3:57, 3 November 2020

(Translated)

Rhun ap Iorwerth. Rhun ap Iorwerth. There we are.

Photo of Rhun ap Iorwerth Rhun ap Iorwerth Plaid Cymru

Sorry, I was waiting for the signal. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Llywydd. Thank you for the statement, First Minister. Thank you in particular for recognition of well-being issues, be that allowing gyms to reopen, which is so important for physical and mental health, and in particular, as well, I think, allowing single people to get together in very controlled circumstances. A number of issues—I'll run through them very, very quickly. I'm desperately worried about hospital transmission of the virus—currently, I think some 200 cases of transmission in hospitals in Wales over the past week. How much of a priority is it for Welsh Government to get to grips with that, which is so worrying in terms of undermining the confidence that we need to instil in people that they should continue to seek treatment for illnesses and so on?

On testing, I'll emphasise again my wish that we hear more about the developments that we need post this firebreak in order to make our testing system more robust. There are exciting advances in technology that need to be matched by exciting advances in policy as well. My daughter had a COVID test last week, got the test result back in 18 minutes. That's a game changer, and we need to know that that is the direction we're going for wholesale testing in Wales.

Treatments—you'll know that I spent a lot of time in the early months of the pandemic trying to argue the case for earlier intervention. I believed that lives were being lost because people were being told not to come forward until they were too ill. We have better treatments now—that's good—including things we argued for—continued positive airway pressure and oxygen treatment and so on. Do you think there's room for even more early intervention in order to avoid people getting quite so ill?

On hospitality, I'm glad we had clarity on what's happening in hospitality. Tourism is linked to hospitality, of course. Now, can you give us an idea of what we can expect or what should be allowed in terms of accommodation and attractions? We are clearly not inviting people to travel a long distance for tourism purposes, but you are recognising in opening hospitality that recreation is important. What can people expect in tourism? And I'm making the case again, whether it's tourism or other areas that are still not getting any support from Government in terms of financial assistance, please try to fill those gaps. I think what happened with the fund last week, closing within a day or two instead of being open for a month, has undermined confidence. Please look again at that, and make sure that businesses are given the support they need.

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 4:00, 3 November 2020

Equally rapidly, as I said, the chief executive of the NHS said things earlier today on hospital transmission, and I'll ask Members to look at what he said. I am concerned—I should have said it in answer to Mark Isherwood's question when he talked about people avoiding the NHS. I don't want us to head back to where we were back in April, when there was so much coronavirus in our hospitals that people didn't feel safe in going there for other purposes. That's yet another reason why we need to make the very most of this firebreak period and persuade people to behave in different ways beyond it.

On the technologies, as I've said, the health Minister will issue a statement later this week on some of those technological possibilities and how we are preparing for them. I too recognise what Rhun ap Iorwerth said about there being better treatments available in this second wave than in the first, and you can actually see that, I think, already, to an extent, in the slower path of people from hospital beds into critical care. We do have more people in critical care beds in Wales than we had three weeks ago, that's inevitable, but the rate at which hospital patients are converting into critical care patients is not what it was in the first wave, and that is because we have those additional treatments.

Of course I recognise the points that Rhun made about tourism as well as hospitality. Tourism will be able to resume in Wales, but it will inevitably be on the reduced basis that comes without our largest market, in the sense that the largest number of people who travel to Wales for tourism come from England, and that won't be happening over the next four weeks.

Photo of Mark Reckless Mark Reckless Conservative 4:02, 3 November 2020

First Minister, has the coronavirus pandemic accelerated building a Welsh state? Before it started, many in Wales had little idea of the power you had over them. Indeed, many didn't know who you were. Now you are beamed into their living room and you decide when they can leave their house. Meanwhile, a previously barely visible border between Wales and England looms ever larger. From Monday, you are restoring internal freedom of movement within Wales but preventing movement in and out of Wales, as if Adam Price were already First Minister.

You claim this is because of COVID, but the prevalence of COVID differs much more within Wales than with England. You'll have no problem with my constituents in Merthyr, where the prevalence of COVID is high, visiting Monmouthshire, where it's low, yet you ban my constituents in Monmouthshire from travelling to nearby low-prevalence areas just because they're English. First Minister, you accuse Adam Price of wanting to separate us off, but isn't that what you are doing?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 4:03, 3 November 2020

Llywydd, all I am doing is focusing on coronavirus. I don't share the obsessions that the Member has with all these other entirely irrelevant and erroneous contributions. Let him just for a minute, I think, just in one of the things that he says to the Senedd, focus on the lives that are being lost, the futures that are being blighted here in Wales, because of this desperate disease. Let him once in a while tell us something of his views on that instead of entertaining us in the way that he does with these theories that belong on the further fringes of Welsh public life, and hopefully, before too long, beyond the fringes.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 4:04, 3 November 2020

Finally, Laura Jones. Laura Anne Jones. Can the mike be unmuted?

Photo of Laura Anne Jones Laura Anne Jones Conservative

Just done it. Thank you.

Firstly, thank you, First Minister, for your statement, and thank you, Presiding Officer, for letting me sneak in at the end here. I'll try and keep it brief. I just want to firstly say, First Minister, I'm delighted that Alun Davies and Delyth Jewell have both also recognised the dire need to reopen the ERF phase 3 fund for businesses who were applying for £150,000 and are now being told to apply for mere grants of £2,000. It's obviously not going to cut it, so I thank you that you're now going to look into reopening that.

My question is, quickly, on grass-roots football. Your post-firebreak rule of 30, in terms of football, would mean 14 versus 14 on either side in a match, with one ref and one first aider, meaning one sub and no linesmen. For training purposes, that's fine, First Minister; for friendly matches, obviously not so good. But, from this rule of 30, do I assume that there is no intention to start grass-roots football seasons here in Wales? In England, obviously, as you know, grass-roots football seasons have started and are now on hold but with the intention of restarting them. So, could the First Minister just explain what discussions he's had with the Football Association of Wales on this, and whether the intention is to start those seasons, or not, as obviously our clubs need to know? Thank you. 

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 4:05, 3 November 2020

Llywydd, I may not have been following the Member's question entirely closely; I thought that football was played with 11 a side and that, with 30, it would therefore be possible for a football match to take place. So, I may simply have misunderstood the point the Member was making, and apologise if that's the case.

What I want to say to her is that we promised a review after three weeks; that's a review of everything that we are putting in place beyond the firebreak period. If things are going in the right direction, if we can show that the firebreak has had the impact that it needs to have in turning back the tide and stopping people from being admitted to hospital and so on, then we will look to see where we can go further. If we're not in that position, then, inevitably, we will be unable to offer further relaxations in the way that we would like. But, in this area, as in all others, we will keep it under review, we will talk to the governing bodies in the way that Laura Anne Jones suggested and, as I said, in the end this just depends on us all. We can all do things that will mean that, two weeks beyond the firebreak, we can attend to some of the points that the Member makes. Or, we can all regard the firebreak being over as a chance to just forget that coronavirus exists and behave in ways that will just guarantee that it comes back with a vengeance and then nothing will be possible of the sort that she advocates.

(Translated)

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Photo of Ann Jones Ann Jones Labour 4:07, 3 November 2020

Thank you very much, First Minister.