Questions now from party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Helen Mary Jones.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. If I can begin by returning the Minister to the third phase of the economic resilience fund—and we did, of course, have an opportunity to question him about the situation, about having to close early, last week. There is, of course, the saying that a week is a long time in politics, and I wonder if the Minister can tell us is he yet able to give us a timescale by when he expects his officials to have been able to process all those applications, to sort out, as he's already intimated in his reply to Andrew R.T. Davies, those that were, in fact, better suited to emergency support and those that are development opportunities. And does the Minister expect to be able to reopen that fund, or, given the scale of applications that he's already received, is it likely that, in fact, we'll be looking to a further tranche a little later on in the year?

So, it does certainly look as though a further tranche of support is going to be required later on in the year, and I would, rather than give an indication that the third phase would be potentially reopened, rather state that a fourth phase of the fund is going to be available to businesses. I wouldn't want to create any artificial expectations that the third phase could be reopened. There may be underspend in the development grants fund. If there is underspend in that particular fund, then we would seek to utilise it for the fourth phase. But, as I've said to Andrew R.T. Davies, I'd urge any businesses that took the time to put together applications, with all of the supporting evidence, to hold on to those applications in readiness for the expression of interest mechanism going live on the Business Wales website later this autumn. 

We have, of course, already begun the process of awarding funds to businesses seeking development grants. I've already identified, I think, in committee, some really good examples of businesses that submitted successful applications. And so far, as part of the ERF phase three, a total of 14,000 awards have been made, amounting to more than £43 million. So, speed is of the essence. We're meeting the demand in terms of speedy payments of emergency cash. But of course I do recognise that demand for development grants was overwhelming, which is why we're learning as fast as we possibly can so that we can shape the next round of support according to what businesses really need.

I'm grateful to the Minister for his answer and for some of the private conversations he's had with me, and I know with spokespeople of other parties, in this regard. I wonder if he can take the opportunity to just lay out a little bit more for us the lessons learnt from the issues that arose with phase 3 intimated in his answers already with regard, for example, to an expression of interest process, which may help weed out applications that are not suitable.

And with regard to what that fourth phase might address, the Minister will be aware that I've got ongoing concern about businesses that ought to, or have to, as it were, hibernate—those businesses that simply cannot trade, or cannot trade with any kind of profit, until we have a vaccine and until we can get back to some kind of normal. And that's everything from—I know I've mentioned to him in the past things like clothing hire, live music venues, which may be able to open with socially distanced gigs, but won't be able to make any money, and certain sorts of holiday businesses. Obviously, the fact that we now have furlough will be of huge assistance to those businesses, but they do have some ongoing costs for some other things, like rent, maintenance of equipment and loan servicing. Will the Minister undertake to give some consideration with the fourth phase as to whether there should be some targeted specific help to businesses in those sectors, bearing in mind what he said before about any business that was viable in February this year, we want it to be viable and contributing to the economy in the spring of next year?

Can I thank Helen Mary Jones for her question and also welcome the incredibly valuable conversations that we've had during the course of the pandemic, and that we've had with other opposition spokespeople as well? Your input has been hugely important in helping to shape the Welsh Government's response to the economic crisis. And, of course, some of those sectors and sub-sectors that you've identified to date will undoubtedly bounce back quite rapidly when—hopefully—an array of vaccines are deployed. What's required in the meantime is the support to cover various other fixed costs over and above labour costs. Of course, the furlough scheme's extension is very welcome, but the point of the local lockdown business fund is to make sure that we provide emergency cash to support businesses in paying those other costs, whether it be rent, heat and so forth, and we will utilise the fourth phase of the economic resilience fund to ensure that we create that bridge from now through to the point where we know businesses—viable, good businesses—can operate successfully again.

And in terms of some of the specific support that may be considered, as part of economic resilience fund phase 3, we did provide a ring-fenced fund of £20 million for tourism and hospitality businesses. We're going to be assessing how effective that has been. There have also been other interventions in other departments, for example, the culture recovery fund, which has been important for businesses within the arts and culture sector. Again, we'll be learning lessons from those in what will be, I think, a crucially important fourth round of support for businesses to see them through to the end of the first quarter of Q1, to that point when many scientific experts are suggesting that life could return to something of a norm.

I'm grateful to the Minister for that. If I can take us in a slightly different, more medium-term direction, we were very grateful for the Minister's input to our discussions in committee this morning, and one of the areas that we touched on was the way in which—. Equality organisations have been saying to us as a committee that equality considerations, fairness, haven't always been easy to mainstream into economic development policy. There have been specific initiatives, but it's not necessarily been mainstreamed.

The Minister, I'm sure, will acknowledge that, in order to discover whether any future initiatives are working, there needs to be an effective monitoring system, but also that we don't want to make that too bureaucratic for businesses to respond to. So, can I ask the Minister this afternoon if he'll give consideration to working with partners who are experts in this field, both in terms of sex equality, race equality and thinking of the disability movements as well, to see if we can generate a simple system whereby he will be able to monitor, and therefore those of us on the appropriate committee will be able to monitor, whether his intentions with regard to mainstreaming a fair work agenda, really addressing some of the disparities between men and women in the job market, disparities between black people and people of colour—? Is it possible, and will he give consideration to creating a really robust and clear system that isn't too bureaucratic but whereby we can actually see what's happening when it comes to building back better in this regard?

Well, I really welcome the Member's question. I think it's worthy of further discussion, and I'll certainly be in touch to discuss this important proposition. I think refreshing the economic contract is hugely important—that's taking place right now, and it gives us an opportunity to look at how we can develop those monitoring systems in the most effective way. We're always open to challenge; we're always open to advice and support. That's why we've drawn in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development to assess the future of regional investment. And, of course, the economic action plan was designed to drive inclusive growth, to narrow inequalities, and, at the same time, to invest or turbo-charge, if you like, the industries of tomorrow.

During the course of the pandemic, an important group that has met very regularly has been the socioeconomic black, Asian, minority ethnic COVID-19 advisory group, and, of course, we're really keen to make sure that the recommendations of that group are incorporated into the work of Welsh Government across all departments, within all portfolios, including within mine, and, crucially, the refresh of the economic contract. But, certainly, I'd very much welcome further discussions with the Member concerning the suggestion that she's made today.

Conservative spokesperson, Russell George. 

Diolch, Llywydd. I have to say, Minister, you look well-suited in that particular seat in the Chamber this afternoon.

Very kind.

Minister, I would welcome the additional £600 million that was announced by the Chancellor last week in guaranteed consequentials to the Welsh Government, and that's, of course, on top of the £1.1 billion guaranteed earlier this year. That brings the total amount of additional funding by the UK Government to £5 billion to fight the pandemic here in Wales. Now, I realise the announcement was only last week, however can you tell me how much funding is still in the Welsh Government's coffers rather than being distributed to businesses to support them during this pandemic?

Can I thank Russell George for his question? I have to say that it rather worries me that so many Conservatives cheered when he suggested that I suit the First Minister's chair. [Laughter.]

First of all, I just want to say I don't want to be petty, I don't want to be political. At a time of national crisis, it's really important that parties set aside their differences and focus on what unites them as much as possible, focus on the common cause. So, I will start my answer by saying I very much welcome every penny that the UK Government makes available to combat the economic crisis that we face. I'm keen to work with UK Government Ministers wherever and whenever I can. I think that's what the public expects of us—to put aside partisan differences and to work in common unity.

With regard to the consequentials, I'm afraid it's probably a question best targeted at the finance Minister, and certainly I will ask her to respond to it in detail, but I can say that, in terms of the available funding for businesses, the finance Minister has already set aside £300 million of extra funding, should it be needed, and in all probability it will be. That will form the fourth phase of the economic resilience fund. And we're also looking at how we can utilise the underspend from the first phase of the economic resilience fund. Members will recall that, with the non-domestic rates related grants that were administered, there is an underspend of £35 million there, which we could repurpose, and we're looking at how we may do that. At the moment, I think we're favouring an expansion of the discretionary awards that local authorities make, because it's my view that local authorities know their areas, their communities, their businesses, extraordinarily well across Wales and therefore having that ability to invest more on a discretionary basis makes perfect sense. 

Thank you for your answer, Minister. I align myself to your views as well. I think it's better that parties work together, where that can happen. It was a question I did raise last week, and perhaps you are right to say this is a question for the finance Minister, but Cardiff University has estimated more than £1 billion remains unallocated from existing Welsh Government budgets, so I'm really hoping that the Welsh Government, in terms of whether it's yourself or the finance Minister, can confirm, if this is the case, why the Welsh Government is not committing this money now to support businesses rather than holding it back. So, I appreciate part of that question is to the finance Minister, but certainly I would welcome your perspective in terms of that money that the Welsh Government has in its reserves being spent in your portfolio area. And, if you would agree with that, is this the kind of conversation that we can expect you to have with the finance Minister?

Yes, and the First Minister has been very clear that consequentials that stem from an increase in spending on business support in England will be allocated to business support in Wales. The problem that we face within Welsh Government is continued uncertainty about the funds that are available. This is a marathon as well; this will go on for many months. This will go on, in many respects, for several years. There will be the economic aftermath of the immediate crisis, and we know that there will be increased costs associated with pretty much all public services, and therefore it's right and responsible to retain some firepower for later in the autumn and for into the new year. That's why think it's vitally important that the finance Minister has put into a reserve £300 million of business development support.

Thank you for your answer. I'll perhaps move on from this point to my final point or question today. When we refer to supporting businesses, we're of course talking not so much about big businesses with mountains of reserves, we're talking about those small family firms, those small businesses, that are run by individuals. Businesses need clarity with urgency. Now, I know, Minister, you were due to make a statement on the ERF in this Chamber last week and that's now been put off til next month. From my perspective, this pandemic is damaging livelihoods and lives—I'm sure you'll agree with me in that regard. But we do need some clarity and I would like to see that funding and the next phase announced as soon as possible, because we know that people's livelihoods depend on that position.

I don't think it's entirely unfair to suggest that phase 3 of the economic resilience fund was not perhaps handled as best as it could have been, and surely—. From my perspective, if you tell businesses there is a limited fund, served on a first come, first served basis, then we shouldn't be surprised that the Government's website and Business Wales were overwhelmed within 24 hours. Now, Business Wales, of course, needs to be suitably resourced, and I do wonder what level of detail of conversations were held with them prior to the announcement to ensure that they were prepared as much as possible for the level of contact with them from small businesses. There was also some confusion from local authorities in regard to having different guidance and taking different approaches and various sets of guidance being received, so my final question, similar to Helen Mary's, but in the context I've just talked about: what lessons have you learned over the past two weeks that can be applied to the next round of funding that you are set to announce? 

Can I thank Russell George for his questions? There were several questions there, all equally important, I think. Obviously, lessons will be learned from each of the phases of the economic resilience fund and from other funds that are operating in other portfolios. One of the clear lessons that we must learn from the development grant part of ERF phase 3 is to ensure that businesses are placing applications on the basis of the purpose of the fund, not in the hope of attracting funding for a different purpose. We know that there is a significant proportion of businesses applying for development grants who are actually looking for emergency cash. The emergency cash is still available through the £200 million lockdown fund that is still available. And so a very clear steer is going to be necessary in the future to ensure that businesses don't attempt to make multiple applications for emergency cash awards, and to ensure that businesses are clear in so far as what they are applying for and the criteria that need to be met as well, because there are strict criteria associated with the development grant scheme.

In terms of ERF and the statement on the recovery and reconstruction, the two are very different. ERF is the fund, which is in operation at the moment; it's still live. The £200 million part of that fund is still available to businesses, but the statement that was due to be made in the Chamber last week concerned the long-term economic reconstruction and recovery proposals from Welsh Government. It was felt, given where we were with the firebreak, given the immediate response that was necessary to support businesses through that difficult period, that a small delay in outlining the long-term ambitions for the economy was prudent and proper, and that last week the focus should have been entirely, as it rightly was, on the immediate support required for businesses.

I would agree that urgency and clarity are required at all times, and that's why we have that single point of contact for businesses, Business Wales. They were under pressure—immense pressure—during the course of the application process of the development grants being live. We are in constant dialogue with them in terms of capacity. We vary capacity according to demand, and they were obviously operating at maximum capacity when that grant fund went live. What I did not anticipate, unfortunately, were the very numerous cases of verbal abuse. That is simply unacceptable, and I'm sure every Member in this Chamber would agree that, no matter how stressed, no matter how difficult a businessperson is finding the operating environment, it's really important to show respect and courtesy to people who are helping them.