Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 5:26 pm on 17 November 2020.
Thank you, Minister, for that statement. Let's begin with some positives and areas that we would agree on. I'm pleased to hear you saying that your strict approach to the use of MIM remains unchanged and that conventional capital should be used first, then that you would use limited borrowing powers—'limited' being the operative word—and then, only then, look at the possibility of using MIM. And in that context, I think MIM does have its attractions. It has its drawbacks also, though. It is not PFI. We're very pleased that Wales used PFI less, but it is ultimately another partnership that allows profit on some things that we shouldn't be needing companies to profit from. I'm sure Mike Hedges, when he makes his contribution to the debate later, will be saying some similar things.
We heard the Minister saying that the successful completion of the groundbreaking MIM procurement demonstration on the Heads of the Valleys road shows what Wales can achieve in difficult times when we address challenges with creativity. Well, no; what it does is it shows what Welsh Government can do when it has no choice, when the UK Treasury decides what can be spent, what can be borrowed and when. Welsh Government is out of step—or Wales, I should say, is out of step—with what's happening in most other countries in going down this MIM route, and I'm sure the Minister would have to agree that, for example, an independent Wales would be able to finance through more conventional means, through borrowing at record low levels. So that's what we should be celebrating, but in the context that we are in, this is a slightly better option than PFI that can be useful.
Transparency, though, is a word that the Minister used. Heads of the Valleys—yes, we absolutely need to have robustness in that road across the Heads of the Valleys. I'm told it will cost about £550 million, but for the sake of transparency, can we just have a figure from the Minister today as to how much we will actually pay from Welsh Government coffers over the decades for that project?
Moving on to schools, I'm deeply uncomfortable about Wales being a nation that is unable to finance new schools through conventional means. I'm sure Meridiam is a fine company with a global record, as it does, but to be working with an international company on the delivery of schools here in Wales is something, as I say, that I'm uncomfortable about. Surely this is something that should be able to happen from conventional borrowing, except we're not allowed to, of course. It should be able to happen from current budgets, too. But, again, on transparency, will the Minister provide a link to where the final agreement entered into with Meridiam as part of the new WEPCo vehicle may be found? That's a question asked by Adam Price earlier this month. The answer from the Minister for Education:
'The agreement was signed on 30 September 2020. As it contains commercially sensitive information we would not look to publish the document.'
Where is the transparency on the agreements that we are entering into?
And on another project that I'm very, very supportive of, a new Velindre hospital, I am very, very aware of concerns over whether the right clinical model is being pursued for the delivery of a new hospital. Can I ask, whilst that investigation is going on into the appropriateness of the choice of that clinical model, whether the finance Minister has looked at ensuring that decisions on the clinical model are not clouded, not influenced in any way, by which would be the best commercial deal or the best property deal for the partners involved—partners that are looking to make a profit out of this, otherwise they wouldn't be a part of it? Thank you.