The Conservative spokesperson, Janet Finch-Saunders. 

Minister, in June 2018, the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee warned that there was every likelihood of a post-Brexit governance gap. NRW, as the environmental regulator, simply does not have sufficient independence, and it is felt that the future generations commissioner's office does not have sufficient environmental focus and expertise. Therefore, there is a feeling that Wales needs a new body to monitor Government actions in delivering on environmental legislation, an accessible complaints system and proper, robust and enforced legislation.

Here we are now, almost 30 months later. Now, the UK Government is in the process of appointing the inaugural chair of the office for environmental protection. In comparison, the timeline for the establishment of a successor environmental governance body for Wales remains unclear. It has been apparent since June 2018 that Wales needs this new body, and even before this, in March of that year, the Welsh Government did make a commitment to take the first proper legislative opportunity to enshrine environmental principles into law and to close this governance gap. When will we see solid details about this timeline and the establishment of a new body and why has this not been progressed already?

Well, one of the reasons is, as you're aware, that this is just one tiny part of leaving the European Union, and I just wish sometimes that you sat in some of the meetings that I did where you recognise the sheer amount of work that needs to be done in the next, I think, 42 days now before we leave the European Union. 

But this is a very important point and I'm very happy to answer questions so that people can understand where we are. So, I think you have to admit that the Welsh Government was very prescient in having the Environment (Wales) Act 2016 that we had. So, the gaps in environmental governance are very different in Wales to what they are in England. Obviously, the UK Government have abandoned their UK Environment Bill at the moment—that's been paused, although I think it's just about to restart—but we have our environment Act here. So, in relation to principles, for instance, we have a set of environmental principles in our environment Act that other countries don't have. 

However, as you're aware from my Brexit round-table stakeholder group, I set up a task group from that to ask them to bring forward a report, which they've done. And I think I mentioned in an answer to Llyr last week in committee that I'll be bringing forward further information on that. I'm not sure if you asked me in a written question or whether I wrote to you to say that we have gone out to advert for a person to head up this part of Welsh Government after we leave the European Union and the timeline for that was, I think, before Christmas.

Thank you, and thank you for confirming that, in July 2019, you did convene a task group of key stakeholders to work with you to further develop details of the environmental governance structure for Wales. Now, on 5 November, you stated that you intend to publish these proposals for longer-term environmental governance arrangements by the end of the year, alongside the environmental governance task group report. Whilst that itself already represents a delay to the original promise to publish the task group recommendations this autumn, it turns out that the group did actually report in April 2020. You did advise us last Thursday in committee that the report could not be made available due to lack of capacity and resources. Will you provide some more detail today as to what are the specific capacity and resource challenges that have rendered you unable to share the report for some seven months and explain why you are denying this Welsh Parliament the opportunity to scrutinise the report and recommendations ahead of your proposals for environmental governance?

Yes. I think I did explain last week that it's the same group of officials who are working on EU transition who are working on the COVID-19 response. We just haven't suddenly doubled our number of officials. So, that was what I meant by a lack of capacity and resources. And I will not deny this Senedd the opportunity. I will be publishing the Welsh Government response to the recommendations that will come out of the task group, and also the report.

Thank you, Minister. I think really what has happened here is that long-term arrangements for environmental governance have been put on the back burner. Now, with such frustratingly slow progress on future plans, it is reasonable to expect interim arrangements to be in place. Now, I am aware that you made ensuring that there is a complaints mechanism a priority and that all complains should be independently assessed, and that has to be widely welcomed. However, despite us being less than two months away from the end of the transition period, it was on Monday that the interviews for an interim environmental protection assessor were being held. By when will this assessor be in post? Have the expert panel that will be supporting the assessor been appointed, and if not, when will they? And can you confirm that the interim complaints system that should become operational from 1 January 2021 will have sufficient capacity to deal with numerous concerns at the same time? Thank you.

I wouldn't agree that it's been put on the back burner, but, obviously, we have to prioritise, and a public health pandemic, such as we have seen and are currently still in the middle of, has to take priority. So, within my portfolio—if you look right across my portfolio, you will see everything is bathed in European legislation and finance et cetera, so it's a huge piece of work that we're unfortunately having to do as we hurtle towards 31 December. So, it's not been put on the back burner at all, but, clearly, you can't do everything—I wish we could. So, just to confirm, the interim measures are designed to provide a stopgap between the end of transition and the introduction of statutory measures. As you referred to, we've been out to advert, we're in the process of advertising, and the person will be in place. What I've said is that I want a better system. This is actually somewhere where I think we can be better than the current system that we have with the European Union at the moment. You refer to it as 'numerous complaints'; well, I've looked back to see how many complains we've actually sent from Wales to Brussels, and I wouldn't call it numerous. It's also very evident it's slow, so I think it's really important that when you do get a complaint, you can expedite it as quickly as possible, and scrutinise and investigate in a much quicker way. So, I think it's really important that we get the system right. I would very much like to have brought it forward in this Senedd term, but, unfortunately, I can't. But we have made sure that the interim measures are robust and fit for purpose.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I think there's an extreme irony in the fact that we have Conservatives here complaining about the grave problems caused by Brexit, and complaining about the sluggishness of the Welsh Government. I have some sympathy with that, but they need to remind their own Government at the UK level of the slowness in providing clarity to us in Wales of exactly what will face us in 42, 43 or 44 days from now.

You won't be surprised to hear me referring to another problem, because you will recall that you gave us evidence, along with your chief veterinary officer, at the environment committee on the implications of the end of the transition period on the veterinary capacity here in Wales with all the additional requirements, the export health certification in ports, all of which will mean that we will need further veterinary capacity; capacity that we don't have here in Wales, as the chief veterinary officer reminded us. Now, in light of that, you have suggested that perhaps we will need to look at moving vets from TB testing work, for example, or from dealing with bird flu, in order to meet these additional demands brought on by Brexit. So, with a little over 40 days to go until 1 January, can you explain what exactly the Welsh Government's plans are to meet that demand?

You're referring to the session we had last week around export health certification, and I raised that in a sub-committee of Cabinet this morning, because, clearly, the UK Government just seem to think that we can throw money at this, and we can recruit environment health officers, who take, I think, it's four years to train—probably not that much less than vets. When I raised it at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs inter-ministerial group on Monday, I was told, 'Well, you can just put vets onto this work'. Again, I explained, as you said, that if I take vets off TB testing—and now we've got avian flu in the UK; fortunately not in Wales, but in the UK, so that's taking a great deal of surveillance work—again, you would be taking vets off that work. So, it's hugely disappointing that that the UK's Government answer to this very critical problem.

As a Government, we have recruited more vets over the past, probably, three years now—we've had a focus on that. I'm meeting APHA tomorrow—the Animal and Plant Health Agency—because clearly they are looking at England and Wales; they have responsibility for both countries. I want to reiterate to the chief executive tomorrow—and I have to say, he has always recognised this—that they need to make sure that decisions around recruitment, for instance—. I think that, perhaps, they are waiting for the comprehensive spending review, as we all are, before they look at what else they can do to assist us, but I will certainly be discussing that with him tomorrow.

You did, of course, suggest in committee that you might have to take, as you have reiterated there, vets away from TB testing. That, of course, inevitably would mean less testing, meaning as well of course that there is a greater likelihood that tests maybe wouldn't be completed in a timely manner, which then brings the potential of greater movement restrictions facing some of our farmers. So, there are huge knock-on effects here, and I'm wondering maybe what your assessment is in terms of the impact that moving that capacity would have on your TB testing programme. Would redirecting vet capacity away from TB, for example, necessitate greater flexibility in terms of allowing farmers not to test as often, let's say? Maybe you could tell us exactly what your thinking is around that, because, clearly, I'm sure you'd agree that farmers shouldn't be penalised for something that obviously is beyond their own control.

Absolutely, and going back to the irony that you referred to, at a time when we want to maintain our animal health and welfare standards, as we are looking at trade negotiations, obviously, we don’t want to be doing that. So, this is a piece of work that the chief veterinary officer's office is looking at for me. We've been very clear during the COVID-19 pandemic that we wanted to keep TB testing going in the way that we would have done normally, and I think that we have maintained as much as we can of that. But, clearly, there have been issues where, sometimes, TB testing hasn't been able to happen because somebody is in isolation, for instance, in relation to the pandemic. So, this is a piece of work—. Because we don't want to take vets off these very important testing regimes to then do the export health certificates. So, I think that it is a twin-track approach. I'm working very closely with my colleague Julie James and local authorities around local authority preparedness in relation to trying to recruit more environmental health officers. I was referring to Holyhead in an XO UK Government meeting and the difficulties with recruitment. I can't imagine that it's just Wales that is having difficulty recruiting environmental health officers, and I'm sure it will be the same with vets as well. So, again, it’s something that the chief veterinary officer is also discussing with her other three counterparts.

Yes, with 40-odd days to go. Given the uncertainty that persists, clearly, ahead of the end of the transition period, I'd like to ask as well what the Welsh Government is doing to provide advice to animal keepers and pet owners about the availability of animal feed, given the well-documented concerns around delays to supply chains. The Government's own 'no deal' Brexit plan acknowledges supply chain issues as a major potential challenge. So, could you tell us whether your Government has plans to advise animal keepers about ensuring that they have sufficient supplies, given the potential uncertainty? And what are you doing to make sure that there are sufficient reserves of farm animal feed available as well? You don’t need me to tell you what the horrendous consequences might be to animal welfare if the Government doesn't get this right.  

This is part of our contingency plans, and you will have seen that the Welsh Government published our end-of-transition plan last week. As you say, it's just like food for us, isn't it? We need that animal feed too. So, again, this is part of our contingency plans, and we'll discuss, obviously, with our stakeholders at the next round-table stakeholder meeting—this is an item that we will continue to discuss, because, as you say, it's just over 40 days now until we leave the European Union.