Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

2. Questions to the Counsel General and Minister for European Transition (in respect of his European Transition responsibilities) – in the Senedd at 2:42 pm on 9 December 2020.

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Photo of Ann Jones Ann Jones Labour 2:42, 9 December 2020

We now turn to spokespeople's questions. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Dai Lloyd. 

Photo of David Lloyd David Lloyd Plaid Cymru

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. In terms of the Welsh Government role in the Brexit deal, obviously there's much feverish activity—we've all seen on our television screens in the last few days, last supper tonight et cetera—can I just ask though, from the Minister's point of view, in these final few days and hours, Minister, could you outline what role you have had on behalf of Welsh Government in feeding in to the ongoing situation to stand up for Wales's interests, or have you been sidelined again?

Photo of Jeremy Miles Jeremy Miles Labour

Well, most recently, I attended a JMC(EN) for European negotiations, last Thursday, where I made the point in relation to our priorities as a Government on behalf of the people of Wales, and raised questions about levels of progress in relation to different aspects of negotiation. I made the point that, at this stage, the imperative for both parties, incidentally, was to demonstrate flexibility, but that, in particular, since it's the UK Government's obligation to look after the economic interests of the people of the UK, that they should put the priority on the jobs and livelihoods of people in Wales, rather than on an illusory concept of sovereignty. 

Photo of David Lloyd David Lloyd Plaid Cymru 2:43, 9 December 2020

Thank you for that, and if I just move on now to the shared prosperity fund, which has been touched on on occasions today. You'll be aware, of course, that you've recently announced a new framework for regional investment in Wales, which will be in place by the time EU funds begin to dissipate at the end of this year. Your recent statement regarding this, Minister, concluded that, and I quote:

'our delivery of this Framework is dependent on positive engagement with the UK Government that has so far been withheld. Wales must receive funding in full which needs to respect our devolution settlement.'

Considering, therefore, the level of input, or rather lack of input, that you've received, as part of the Brexit deal negotiation process over the years, what makes you think the situation here will end up any differently? 

Photo of Jeremy Miles Jeremy Miles Labour 2:44, 9 December 2020

Well, I hope the Member won't have read any confidence into my statement, because the experience of trying to gain information about the thinking behind the shared prosperity fund has unfortunately been one where that hasn't been forthcoming. We have tried, as a Government, as I think his question implicitly acknowledges, to devise successor arrangements in collaboration with people in Wales, and, as a consequence of that, given how important they are, there is a broad base of support for the approach that we are promoting. I myself think that, when the UK Government is able to read and analyse the provisions and the proposals in that framework that they will struggle, quite honestly, to find in there proposals that they wouldn't wish to support because the focus of them is on encouraging productive businesses, supporting employment, and so on, and I know that is on their list of priorities as well. So I would say that the UK Government ought to engage with us about how we can, even at this late hour, make sure that the people in Wales have the promises they were made kept, both with regard to how the funds are spent, but also crucially what those funds are. As we stand here today, those promises have been broken, but it's not too late to relent on that and to put in place arrangements that meet the commitments made to people in Wales. 

Photo of David Lloyd David Lloyd Plaid Cymru 2:45, 9 December 2020

I'm grateful for that answer, Minister. Can I just turn finally to the internal market Bill that we've just discussed? Obviously, the Senedd voted to withhold its consent to this Bill earlier. Westminster is unlikely to listen. It has a track record of not listening to us as a Senedd when we vote down legislative consent. So, the question that arises then is: what next steps are the Welsh Government considering taking to protect devolution and protect Welsh democracy—[Inaudible.]—devolution settlement over the past few months? If not, would he now be open to doing so?

Photo of Jeremy Miles Jeremy Miles Labour 2:46, 9 December 2020

I didn't catch the entire question, but I think he was asking me about what steps we would take, and I've been very clear that we will take every step that is legally available to us to protect the powers of this Senedd. I think that we shouldn't assume—. Well, we shouldn't allow the impression to arise that proceeding in the teeth of the opposition of the devolved legislatures in the UK is an acceptable course of action for the UK Government. We do know that the Sewel convention needs, frankly, an overhaul in terms of how it operates, but at its heart is the principle that defying the decisions of the devolved Parliaments should be only ever done in absolute extremis. And these circumstances certainly do not meet that very high bar, and I describe it as a very high bar because I know that is what UK Government Ministers will describe it as as well. 

Photo of Ann Jones Ann Jones Labour 2:47, 9 December 2020

Thank you. Conservative spokesperson, Darren Millar. 

Photo of Darren Millar Darren Millar Conservative

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Will the Minister provide an update on discussions he's had with the UK Government as regards trade deals outside of the EU?

Photo of Jeremy Miles Jeremy Miles Labour

Yes, certainly. I'm attending this afternoon, at about 4 o'clock, the next meeting of the ministerial forum for trade, and I expect to discuss a wide range of issues with the relevant Minister at that forum.

Photo of Darren Millar Darren Millar Conservative

I'm very pleased that you are participating in that forum, Minister. As you will know, the UK Government has already struck many trade deals beyond the EU around the world, ranging from countries like Peru and Japan to Israel and South Korea. In addition to that, there's engagement ongoing with a dozen other countries, including Mexico, Singapore and Turkey, and it's very clear that post-Brexit trade agreements are lining up to fulfil the expectations that people had when they voted back in 2016 for Brexit. And I'm very hopeful that we here in Wales can take advantage of those deals. 

I know that the former Minister for international relations held regular discussions with the UK Government, and I'm very pleased to hear that you're also carrying on with that work. The former Minister holding the international trade portfolio recognised the engagement, the positive engagement, that had taken place on these trade deals. Can I ask you: what work are you doing pan-Government to ensure that Wales can seize the opportunities that these trade deals present, come 1 January?

Photo of Jeremy Miles Jeremy Miles Labour 2:48, 9 December 2020

Well, I thank the Member for that important question. He's right to say, I think about 22 agreements have been signed, there are about five in train, and there are about 12 that remain to be taken forward. What is the common feature of all of those is that they're continuity agreements. So, effectively, they're a very significant amount of work to maintain the current position. So, it is important work and it is essential work that we are able to maintain them, but it's a huge amount of effort to maintain those existing arrangements. And I know that he also wishes to see opportunities on top of those as well, which obviously we wish to see as well. 

Our vision is to make sure that we represent in our discussions with UK Government Ministers the interests of Welsh exporters, so that we can make sure that those are taken into account in those negotiations. He'll have seen I think, perhaps, the assessment that I published yesterday in relation to the impact on the Welsh economy of the Japan deal, for example. So, he will have seen the evidence in there, I think, of the advocacy that we as a Government put in place. I know that my colleague the Minister for the economy is also investing further in international trade advisers, so that businesses and exporters in Wales can have access to the best advice to support them when they don't have that support in house. Of course, part of their role will be to assist our exporters who face new red tape as a consequence of the trading arrangements that the UK Government is introducing, and obviously, again, that is work that is running to stay still in that sense, but looking outside that, there will be support available from the Government to exporters wherever they wish to export.

Photo of Darren Millar Darren Millar Conservative 2:50, 9 December 2020

I'm pleased you've acknowledged the positive work, as I say, and I'm very pleased also that you recognise the work that's been done not only to engage with those countries whereby we have trade arrangements through the continuity trade arrangements, but also those new nations that we will also be doing trade with on a free-trade basis post 1 January. I was wondering whether you could tell me a little bit more about the position of the Welsh Government in relation to future trade deals with Canada, New Zealand and Australia. I'd be very interested to hear in particular whether you've done any work to identify specific Welsh interests in relation to any trade deals that could be done, and any of the representations that you might have made to the UK Government on these. As you will know, there's been significant support across the UK for a CANZUK sort of trade deal amongst the public. Many business leaders have called for that sort of trade deal, and many politicians on a cross-party basis have also supported it. So, considering that that is a potential trade deal that we could see in the future, it would be good to see the Welsh Government taking a proactive approach now and making representations to the Welsh Government in relation to it. So, can you tell us what sort of discussions have been taken place between the Welsh Government and the UK Government in relation to the potential benefits of a CANZUK trade approach?

Photo of Jeremy Miles Jeremy Miles Labour 2:51, 9 December 2020

The UK Government leads on international trade negotiations, as I know he would accept, and I imagine would support. So, our task as a Government is to feed in the Welsh Government's perspective on behalf of the Welsh economy, and Welsh businesses, Welsh exporters, into those discussions. They're very much the sorts of things that will be on the agenda of the discussion today.

I think it's very important to see this in the global context. We will want to make sure that any international trade agreements of the sort that he describes will deliver the maximum benefit for exporters in Wales, but also for businesses and producers already in Wales. So, for example, there are difficult judgments that then arise in the context of doing trade negotiations with significant agricultural exporters, and Australia and New Zealand are both in that category. So, the judgments are often quite difficult to reach, but our priority as a Government is to maximise the opportunity for Wales, for the Welsh economy.

But I think I just want to put it in the context that even the UK Government would say that the economic impact of those trade negotiations for the UK is likely to be fractions of 1 per cent. That's not to say that they shouldn't be pursued, they absolutely should, but I don't think it would be right of us to encourage people to expect that those trade deals in themselves can make up for the absence of a good trading relationship with our largest trading bloc across the channel, because we are talking different orders of magnitude, as I know that he will accept.