18. & 19. The General Principles of the Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Bill and The Financial Resolution in respect of the Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Bill

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 7:40 pm on 15 December 2020.

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Photo of Kirsty Williams Kirsty Williams Liberal Democrat 7:40, 15 December 2020

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. A number of times today, the curriculum and assessment Bill has been described as 'bold, big and ambitious', and I have to admit at 19:40 this evening, I'm not feeling any of those things, but I will give it my best shot in trying to respond to the points that have been raised.

Firstly, can I just reiterate my thanks to all the committees involved? I think there should be a special shout-out for the CYPE committee, because I think the report that they have produced—I don't agree with it all, but I think the quality of that report shows the importance of scrutiny in this particular Parliament, in this Senedd, and I'm very grateful for all the work that has gone into it.

Now, a lot of the debate today has been about raising standards and closing the attainment gap. Let me be absolutely clear: a new curriculum is at the centre of that, but a curriculum on its own can't do all the heavy lifting, and that's why the curriculum is part of a wider set of Welsh Government education reforms that focus on improvement in pedagogy, that focus on a reformed initial teacher education programme—the largest single investment in professional learning that we have ever seen in the history of this Senedd; a revised accountability regime that drives the right kind of behaviours in our schools. So, yes, absolutely, the curriculum is important, but please don't think that the curriculum alone can achieve these goals; it's part of a wider reform programme.

I've talked about how we intend to address mental health, but I do think that having a duty to have regard to mental health and well-being when designing your curriculum, alongside the absolute necessity—the legal necessity—to teach mental health and resilience in our schools, I think, will take us a massive step forwards. 

Mick Antoniw talked about the huge amount of work that has gone into looking at the issue of rights. And Darren Millar just described this Bill as a conflict between the rights of parents and the rights of the state. Well, I tell you what, Darren, this is about moving rights and it's about moving to children's rights, and putting children's rights front and centre in how we educate them. And I will not apologise for that.

I'm grateful for Suzy Davies's support, and she and other Members have raised the issue of how, at the moment, schools of a religious character are treated within the legislation. There is a discrepancy that does place extra burdens and I, as I said in my opening remarks, intend to bring forward an amendment that will address that issue.

Suzy also talked about governors, and again we've heard a lot from Darren Millar about parents. The local curriculum within a school has to be agreed: first of all, it has to be consulted on with parents, and it has to be agreed by a governing body. And the last time I looked, we had significant parental representation on our governing bodies. This is not a case where a parent is not going to have the opportunity—in fact, the parent will have more of an opportunity to talk about what is discussed and taught in their school than they currently have under the system where it is previous Governments that have dictated what is to be taught. So, I would argue parents have a greater role and a greater voice in local curricula than they currently have at the moment. 

Can I just talk about RSE and address the issues that Caroline Jones raised? I will not be moving from my position that we finally get rid of the anomaly that children can be prevented from attending certain subjects within their schools. Children have to—they must—have access to information that keeps them safe from harm and allows them to navigate the world in which we live. In the new curriculum, all children will have the right to access information that keeps them informed on these vital issues, to stay safe online, to know what's right and wrong, so that they can raise issues of concern with responsible adults and protect themselves if necessary. Now, the Member may be raising these issues with what she considers the best of intentions. I have to say to you, Caroline, I'm surprised that your constituents are bringing forward material that is going to be taught in this curriculum, because I've just been accused by other Members saying that I haven't done enough work and the stuff isn't ready yet. So, both things can't be true. The curriculum doesn't exist until 2022, and what you've been shown are not the focus of our new curriculum. They are not—absolutely not. And if you were so concerned about them, then I would have hoped that you would have written to me as the Minister to expose what you believe is being taught in Welsh schools at the moment.

Let me be absolutely clear to Members in this Chamber: I am aware of the choice of the fellow travellers that Caroline Jones has chosen to align herself to at this time. You know, it is a dangerous concoction of pernicious influences, baseless prejudice and paedophile conspiracies. And the way in which some of my colleagues here in this Chamber have been addressed by those individuals, and you know what I'm talking about, is disgraceful—is disgraceful. I'm willing to put up with it as the Minister, but I do not believe that other Members of this Chamber should also be subject to that kind of abuse, and you should distance yourself from it—[Interruption.] You should distance yourself from it—[Interruption.] You should distance yourself from it.

The reality is, Laura, that your experience is not unusual. At best, I got my sex education from reading a Judy Blume book; at worst, it was a very well-thumbed copy of a Jackie Collins novel that passed its way around the classroom. But I have to tell you now, Presiding Officer, there are much more malign influences out there for our children to revert to now. The stuff that they can see at a click of a button is highly dangerous and detrimental to their well-being, and we need to protect them, and we need to give them the knowledge and the information that what they see on that screen is not a reflection of what a healthy relationship is, or the manifestation of what a healthy sexual relationship is. We need to act. We need to act, because the children of Wales are banking on us to act, and banking on us to have the courage to face down the misinformation.

Siân Gwenllian, I want to reassure you that I take very seriously the committee's recommendations around the public information campaign, because I recognise that there are parents out there who are indeed confused and scared because of the misinformation that is being spread. We need to be very clear about what RSE in Wales will look like, and perhaps more importantly, what it won't include. I give my commitment that that work will begin in the new year, so that we can go forward with some confidence.

Presiding Officer, for the first time in our nation's history, we have the opportunity to create a curriculum that has been made in Wales by our practitioners, to be delivered by our practitioners to our children. Siân Gwenllian, there is no way that children in Wales will be able to escape from the story and the stories of Wales. There is no way, because we have accounted for that within our areas of learning and experience and our 'what matters' statements. But this is a chance for our children to be equipped with the skills, the knowledge and experiences that will ensure that when they leave our education system, they can be successful, happy, healthy, confident individuals that will take our nation forward, because when we change our curriculum, we will indeed change our children. We will change their futures, and when we do that, we change the destiny of this country.