5., 6. & 7. The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions and Functions of Local Authorities) (Amendment) (Wales) Regulations 2020, The Health Protection (Coronavirus, International Travel and Restrictions) (Amendment) (No. 3) (Wales) Regulations 2020 and The Health Protection (Coronavirus Restrictions) (No. 4) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2020

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 4:07 pm on 15 December 2020.

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Photo of Vaughan Gething Vaughan Gething Labour 4:07, 15 December 2020

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I thank the Chair of the committee for his as ever constructive comments and points for us to respond to, not just today. But I think it may be best if I write to the committee to deal with all of the comments that he's made to respect the level of detail that he's gone through. And we do want to make sure that as we need to continue to act, and we'll need to continue to act for several months more at the very least, that we do take account of the helpful points made in scrutiny about how we get the regulations right in terms of their legal meaning, and also dealing with the points about communication that Rhun ap Iorwerth finished on. 

Of course, the reality is that we are making these regulations in accordance with the rules of this institution. This is made affirmative legislation, exactly as we have done throughout the course of this crisis, and I do feel that the points that Andrew R.T. Davies makes don't take account of the fact that we had months and months of legislating in this way. I don't think there's anything unusual about it; it's the reality that we're having to take extraordinary measures to respond, and to use the extraordinary procedures that this Parliament has in place to do so. We're in the middle of an accelerating wave of coronavirus. If we were to say that the Government was not entitled to act, the Government was not able to act to protect people across Wales as the position changed without having an affirmative resolution beforehand, then we would undoubtedly make the position of the people of Wales less safe, and this Government would be less able to keep our people safe. I don't understate the seriousness of the reality that the Government is legislating first then asking for endorsement afterwards, but that is, I'm afraid, the reality of the seriousness of the position. It also, of course, in terms of the gap, allows the committee chaired by Mick Antoniw to provide their scrutiny reports for Members to consider.

I welcome the support that the Conservative spokesperson indicated for the move to 10 days on self-isolation in terms of improving messaging. That is part of what we are constantly striving to do all the time. I think we've been very clear about the messages we have. There is new information available from Welsh Government today in terms of the broader messaging about coronavirus and Christmas, and asking people to do the right thing. I think Members across parties should be able to look at that and, hopefully, share it and encourage constituents across the country of all and any political persuasion to think again about all the choices that we're making. You'll hear Ministers from every one of the four Governments in the United Kingdom asking people right across the UK to do just that.

And on the app, I haven't seen the story he refers to about Transport for Wales, but I'm very clear that the app should continue to be used and would encourage as many people to download it as possible. I don't believe that any business should be asking anybody to remove the app because it would affect the operation of their business. It's there to help keep people safe, including the people who you would work alongside in a business, if you were advised to self-isolate because of the risk that has been presented to you and potentially your fellow workers, and I don't think we can be any clearer about that.

On your continued request for a limited and targeted approach, it's never really clear what that actually means, but it's always been the case, ever since you've started calling for that particular approach from your return to this position on the Conservative front bench, that we've had very clear advice from the technical advisory group that all-Wales measures at this point in time are appropriate, simpler and easier for the public to understand and adhere to and follow—simpler and easier for all of us to be able to act together to help protect Wales. Look, I appreciate that he has a different view, but we have very clear, and published—regularly published—advice that underscores the Government's position.

On the new variant, yes, I'm aware we do have a handful of cases already within Wales. I expect to have more information in the coming days as we do more genomic sequencing from test results here in Wales, and Public Health Wales will provide more information when that is available. It isn't clear whether the new variant really is one that spreads more rapidly, but, in any event, we know that coronavirus does spread rapidly with the variants we've already been aware of. The positive news is that we don't believe that this particular variant would affect the efficacy of a vaccine, which was the main concern about the mink variant from Denmark that caused extraordinary measures to be taken very late at night on a weekend, as I and Welsh Government officials know, before we came to this Parliament to ask for approval.

On your broader point about opposing a range of restrictions, I really do think it is extraordinary to continue to oppose restrictions, given the ongoing position and the seriousness within which we find ourselves as a country. At best, I think it's tone deaf to demand improvements whilst opposing measures to deliver improvements that are evidenced by an evidence review from not only our technical advisory group, but also SAGE, on a repeated number of occasions as well. I think people in Wales should take comfort in the fact that we are taking our public health advice from SAGE, from TAG, from our own chief medical officer, and, in doing so, we're supported in taking those measures by the broad approach of every single chief medical officer across the United Kingdom in doing so, and I think that will be the main source of the advice that I take on public health, as opposed to the individual view of Mr Davies.

On Rhun ap Iorwerth's point about the logic, the evidence of what works across the UK is the logic for why we introduced these restrictions, and again, that same evidence from SAGE and TAC—hard evidence of what works. So, that's why we've introduced these restrictions. On your broader point about communication, we constantly look at how we try to have a message that is clear and simple, in amongst the noise that exists, with all the more contested environments, within the political atmosphere, but also within a range of social media and other channels, and the way in which we are looking to try to recover, where we can do, a more consistent four-nations approach with messaging for the public.

It's about how we help people to make choices, but ultimately the Government has responsibilities that we need to meet, and then all of us, every single one of us in the country, have responsibilities to consider what we should do to keep ourselves and each other safe. We are still in the middle of a significant and unfinished pandemic that will take the lives of many more Welsh citizens before this is over. That helps to underscore why these measures remain important and why they are a proportionate response to the level of threat that we all face. I ask Members to support the regulations today.