We move on, therefore, to the first of the two short debates we have this afternoon. The first was postponed from 9 December and is to be presented by Andrew R.T. Davies. 

Thank you, Presiding Officer. It's a pleasure to move the first of the short debates this evening. I can see the Chamber full of bodies who want to listen to this really important debate, and it is an important debate, in fairness, because it relies on the letter that was sent by various governing bodies and people interested in the return of fans to sports, ranging from the Football Association of Wales, the Welsh Rugby Union, Glamorgan County Cricket Club, Swansea City Association Football Club, Newport Dragons Rugby, Cardiff Blues, Scarlets, Ospreys, Ffos Las and Chepstow Racecourse, Bangor-on-Dee Racecourse, Wrexham Association Football Club and Cardiff Devils, to name but a few. I do think it's important that I enter this into the Record of the Assembly. I appreciate that the events around COVID restrictions have changed today from when my debate was first to be taken last week. But I think the questions posed in this letter are important and deserve answers from the Minister, because the letter is directed at the First Minister. But I'm sure, hopefully by now, as this letter was sent on 7 December, it has found its way to the Minister responsible for sports and sports facilities here in Wales, and he will be able to address the points that are laid out in the letter.

David Melding took the Chair.

So, the letter begins by saying, 

'Dear First Minister,

'We are writing as executives and senior representatives of rugby, cricket, horse racing and football—the elite stadium sports in Wales.

'Sport is a fundamental part of life in Wales. It puts our nation on the global stage and provides communities across Wales with a sense of belonging and identity. We form part of an industry that employs thousands of people across the country, our contribution to the Welsh economy, employment and well-being is significant, but this is now at risk.

'We urge Welsh Government to reconsider its approach to the socially distanced return of fans to our sports grounds by embracing the current Sports Grounds Safety Authority'— and I'll be referring to that as 'SGSA' further on—

'guidance known as “SGO2” and withdraw the variant “SG02W” which has been requested by Welsh Government.

'On Monday 30th November, an in-person and virtual meeting was held at Cardiff City Stadium to consider the socially distanced return of fans to our stadia. It was attended by Welsh Government and representatives from WRU, FAW, the Welsh regions, Glamorgan cricket, horse racing and Welsh professional football clubs as well as SGSA, EFL and SAG.

'The meeting noted the publication of the SGSA guidance known as SG02, which is generally based on a social distance of one metre plus mitigations. The SGO2 guidance was issued following extensive consultation, it has underpinned the detailed planning for the return of fans to English stadia from 2nd December, and indeed has been widely acclaimed and shared by the SGSA with countries around the world.

'Taking a more cautious approach, the Welsh Government asked the SGSA to prepare a version of SG02 based on a social distance of two metres. A draft (SG02W) has been received and circulated, but not published. We as a group of national governing bodies and senior clubs urge that this draft be withdrawn and that the Welsh government also embrace the highly regarded SG02 version and subsequently allow test events to be run using this guidance with events taking place as soon as possible.

'We say this because while SG02 reduces expected attendances to between 25% and 35% of capacity depending on concourse densities and stadium layouts. The Welsh version would further reduce capacity to under 10% a level which in effect closes our businesses to the public indefinitely.

'At the meeting, all sporting organisations were extremely disappointed by the lack of prior consultation and the entrenched position adopted by Welsh Government officials during the meeting left us full of concern.

'The situation is grave; the lack of a clear roadmap for the return of spectators in Wales poses the real risk of bankruptcy for our sports. We manage highly regulated stadia, which are overseen by the SGSA who issue our licenses and Safety certificates in conjunction with our respective Safety Advisory Groups (which includes local authority, building control and the emergency services).

'We respect the need to return when it is safe to do so'— which I think is a critical point—

'and acknowledge the need to follow science'— again, another critical point—

'yet highlight the reluctance of Welsh Government to look at a “managed and engineered solution” not present in the retail, construction, transport or hospitality sectors. SG02W will be a significant roadblock that does not offer us a pragmatic or sustainable solution and believe in order to move forward it is essential to have a transparent and collaborative approach with Welsh Government combined with Public Health Wales.

'This will ensure as a collective, we are able to produce a clear roadmap for meaningful pilot test events and the safe return of fans to sporting grounds and events. You will also be very conscious that Welsh sports fans are watching what is happening over the border.

'The clamour for the return of fans to supporting their clubs and national teams can only now continue to increase as the governing bodies and sports clubs suffer without direction or a viable road map in a time when their finances are crumbling before them.

'For a nation that is small in size, Wales punches well above its weight in sporting terms; we want to work with Welsh Government to ensure the survival of our people, clubs, businesses and the future of sport in Wales.

'So, as we stated at the beginning of this letter, we call on Welsh Government to withdraw SG02W and embrace the published SGSA guidance SG02, commit to transparency on the science and a collaborative approach between the sporting bodies, senior clubs, Public Health Wales and Welsh Government in order to provide a clear roadmap for meaningful pilot test events and the safe return of fans to sports grounds.'

Now, I appreciate that that letter was written before the regulation changes that were announced by the First Minister today. But, surely, at some point in the future, we will hopefully see a return to an element of normality—whether that's a new normality or the previous normality that we took for granted. But, it is vital that clubs such as I mentioned at the start of my presentation—and, indeed, grass-roots clubs—have an understanding of how the pyramid of sport that is the family of sport within Wales can begin to see a return of fans to support the clubs that they care about and cherish so much, as well as other sporting ventures, such as horse-racing and the Cardiff Devils.

So, I do hope that the Minister will be able to engage with this open letter—it is an open letter that has been made available to the public—because it has been in the hands of the Welsh Government for some time now, and give a full response, so that we may be able to understand whether there is any movement from the Welsh Government to engage and facilitate such measures when the science allows and when the regulations allow here in Wales. Thank you very much.

Andrew, did you yield any of your time?

No, no requests.

Thank you. I call the Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism to reply. Dafydd Elis-Thomas.

Thank you very much, acting Chair. May I first of all thank and acknowledge Andrew R.T. Davies's contribution to this debate, and also, if I may say, for the good neighbourliness—for which he is well known—in the Vale of Glamorgan? But, perhaps he won't agree with much more that I have to say today, because the first message that I have to restate today on behalf of the Welsh Government is that the first consideration for us as a responsible Government is public health.

The fact that this debate has had to take place today, rather than earlier on, demonstrates how dangerous it is for us to take decisions with regard to public health on short-term changes. Because by this evening, the situation with regard to public health in Wales is entirely serious. So, I don't think that it is appropriate for us to state any kind of promise with regard to a timescale for when we could change this situation.

Now, clearly, I am just as eager as Andrew R.T. Davies is to see crowds of supporters returning to sports grounds. I accept that crowds of supporters are vital to sport being enjoyable. But, the same debate arises with regard to audiences in other fields that are my responsibility, in the arts, for example. And even though we want to see supporters returning, that does have to happen in a safe way.

We, of course, compare our situation with what is happening in England and Scotland, and what has happened, unfortunately, in London and the south-east of England over the past few days. So, it is very important that we do make it clear that the Welsh Government has the firm will to allow the return of sports. I accept what Andrew R.T. Davies has said about the importance of sports clubs and the revenue that comes from sports clubs, particularly with regard to football, on the community level as well as the national level.

We had started with a number of plans for test events that would have included supporters, but we did have to postpone those test events. But, I can give an assurance that my officials who are involved in sport and who engage specifically with public health within the Government do have constant, consistent communication with all of the football associations, the rugby associations, the cricket bodies and the sports societies as well. We work with Sport Wales very closely, as well as with the national governing bodies. 

I announced recently a sport and leisure fund that was worth £14 million for 2020-21 to help the sector, and I accept that this is insufficient to deal with the situation. But this sport and leisure recovery fund is being administered on behalf of the Welsh Government by Sport Wales as our main partner in this field, and that work continues. And I am very eager to provide assurance to Andrew R.T. Davies that the Welsh Government is very willing to have that constant, consistent dialogue with the sports organisations, but the first priority has to be the prioritisation of public health.