Questions now from the party leaders. The Conservatives' spokesperson, Nick Ramsay. 

Diolch, Llywydd. During the pandemic the issue of value for money has become centre stage and making sure, Minister, that we get the best from every Welsh pound spent. Over the last couple of days, it's emerged that the Welsh Government is repaying €3.4 million of rural funding to the European Commission, following last year's Audit Wales report on the rural development programme. Now, I know that the EU's disallowance has been reduced from a little over €33 million to €3.412 million, but can you update us on the current position with this repayment and what lessons the Welsh Government has learned? 

I thank Nick Ramsay for raising the issue of disallowance here in the Senedd this afternoon. This is a matter that has been principally dealt with by my colleague the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs, being the budget holder for that particular programme. So, if it's acceptable to Nick Ramsay, I will certainly ask my colleague to provide that latest update, because, as I say, it's managed within the particular budget line.FootnoteLink 

Information further to Plenary

I get the feeling I'm getting told to move on from that subject, so I appreciate it's within her line. If I can broaden that out into value for money across the whole budget itself, Minister, as I said in yesterday's budget debate, we often talk about building back better, and you've spoken about building back better and building back greener and the First Minister has. Now, that's a perfectly reasonable aim to have, but it's easier to say than it is to do. Looking through the budget, there are certain environmental aspects to it, such as, I think, the £5 million—I think I'm right in saying—towards the national forest; you may correct me on the exact figure for that. Projects like that clearly have a bearing on carbon budgeting and providing carbon sinks, but can you tell us how else you're ensuring that the budget does provide proper carbon budgeting or does at least signpost to it happening in future, so that as well as using all the soundbites about building back greener and better, we're actually going to see a future Wales where we do have environmental considerations at the very centre of everything we do?

Yes, I'd be happy to provide that update. You'll remember, last year, we published our first ever budget improvement plan and that set out some pieces of work that we would put in train this year in order to better understand the impact of the spend that we make, but also to allow us to take decisions that are better in terms of both gender budgeting, for example, but also understanding the carbon impact of the allocations that we've made. So, alongside the budget this year, you'll see several new pieces of work published. One is a distributional impact of spending on devolved public services in Wales. That's a new piece of work that we've undertaken to better understand the impact on the different socioeconomic groups in Wales. You'll also see the work that we've started to develop in terms of gender budgeting.

But, finally, the third part of the new approach is the pilot to model the estimated greenhouse gas emissions. And this is the first time that we've ever tried anything like this in Wales and it's very much in response to the concerns that you and others have raised in the Finance Committee and elsewhere, that this is something that you'd be interested in pursuing. So, alongside the chief economist's report, I did publish the initial exploratory work that the Welsh Economy Research Unit at Cardiff University had been commissioned to undertake for us, and they estimate the greenhouse gas emissions associated with Welsh Government spending. They did so in the first instance covering the largest revenue budget for the health and social services main expenditure group and that's based on last year's figures, but we do hope, between now and the final budget, to be able to get to a point where we've looked at this year's figures and also to look across all of the different MEGs as well. So, it's certainly not a finished product in terms of understanding our carbon impact, but it's definitely an important step forward in the way in which we demonstrate the impact of the choices that we make.

Diolch, Gweinidog. I'm all for carbon budgeting and I think it's great that we're moving that way, but I do appreciate the complexity of trying to achieve that. But, as you've pointed out, we have to start somewhere.

Looking across other aspects of the draft budget, and I appreciate it's still a draft budget, but housing, for instance. I can appreciate how carbon budgeting comes in with providing better broadband, et cetera, because that obviously takes more people off the roads, but your decision on land transaction tax and, for instance, reverting to the previous rate for properties between £160,000 and £250,000—I think they're back to the 3 per cent level pre the pandemic—it's difficult to see how that's going to help those people certainly at the lower end of the housing market—first-time buyers—to get on the housing ladder. So, who do you liaise with and what evidence have you taken into account in taking those decisions on land transaction tax? And are you sure or convinced that the revenues that will be gained from doing that will actually be worth any negative impacts on the first-time-buyer housing market?

Well, the existing reduction that is due to end on 31 March—which is also or at least a similar timescale is being thought of across the border in England as well—was intended to be brought in to ensure that we bring forward some of those transactions from next year. So, it was always intended to be a time-limited intervention to increase the number of homes that are transacted in this financial year. But that said, even when we go back to our original rate, the majority of house buyers in Wales will pay no or reduced land transaction tax and certainly less than they would have paid elsewhere. And we're also in the position in Wales where our average house price is much less than elsewhere. I appreciate it's a different situation in the constituency that Nick represents. But I still think that even then, we will have the most progressive approach that there is in the UK. 

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. There's been quite some coverage across the UK this week on free school meals following the scandal of the inadequate meals provided by private contractors to children in England during the pandemic. But support, generally speaking, is still inadequate for children living in poverty in Wales; we've already referred during this session to extending free school meals during the pandemic, but let's look beyond the pandemic.  

There are 70,000 children in Wales, according to the Child Poverty Action Group, whose families receive universal credit but don't qualify for free school meals. Now, on two recent occasions you as Minister have referred to the fact that costings have been undertaken by your officials on providing free school meals to each and every one of those, first in response to a written question from Adam Price on 4 January, and the second in response to Siân Gwenllian in the Finance Committee a few days later. Can you tell us what conclusion you came to as to how much it would cost to ensure that every child living in poverty does qualify for free school meals? 

Llywydd, I did undertake in Finance Committee on Friday to write to the committee with the full detail in terms of the modelling that we have undertaken to explore the cost of extending free school meals, and I'll be certain to share it also with Rhun ap Iorwerth as well as the Finance Committee to give that level of detail. Of course, this issue was raised again with the First Minister in First Minister's questions just this week, and he did make the challenge—which I think is a completely legitimate one—in the sense that if we are going to look at spending tens of millions of additional pounds on this particular initiative—and, of course, there's a very strong argument for supporting families in this way—then we do need to explore where in the budget we would take that funding from. So, I think that we do have to have both sides of that coin when we're making these choices, but I will share that information as soon as I'm able to. 

Thank you very much, and I fully understand that it's a matter of prioritisation, but I hope that you as finance Minister would agree that there isn't a much greater priority than providing the necessary support for children living in poverty and, indeed, bringing them out of poverty. Having undertaken those costings, you decided for some reason that this wasn't a sufficient priority to include in the draft budget. Will you now reconsider your position on this whilst working on the final budget? 

And in terms of what we heard from the First Minister yesterday, unless you can correct me I think the First Minister yesterday misinterpreted what we're looking at by suggesting that we're talking about 70,000 families here. If there were one child in every family, it would cost £33 million he said, more if there were two children, and as much as £101 million if there were three children in the family, but we are talking about 70,000 children here. Given those figures that we received from the First Minister, should we assume that the cost would be £33 million were we to extend free school meals to those 70,000 children?

As I say, I'll share the modelling that we've undertaken and which is being completed by our officials in Welsh Government with Rhun ap Iorwerth and also with the Finance Committee, and then I think that would be the time then to explore where colleagues would suggest that cuts should be made within the draft budget in order to accommodate a change in this approach. 

Okay. I'll just reiterate once more that this has to be a priority, surely. We're talking about children living in poverty needing every help that they can get, and out of a total budget of £22 billion surely £33 million has to be found. We've seen the shame of the inadequate food boxes. We've seen the frustration and anger triggered by the Marcus Rashford campaign. Let's get this sorted. Look to your unallocated COVID consequentials; is there a contribution there? We know that COVID has amplified poverty problems in Wales. Plaid Cymru is calling clearly for this. Labour councillors in Carmarthenshire, I understand, have backed a Plaid Cymru motion asking the Welsh Government to extend free school meals to all children in families receiving universal credit. It's time the Labour Government acted on this.

I think it's important to recognise that free school meals are one part of an important package of support that we provide to children and families who are struggling. You'll have heard me already this afternoon talk about the additional funding that we're putting into the school holiday enrichment programme, which of course is not just about providing food to those families but providing opportunities to children in terms of meeting up with friends and having learning experiences through the holidays so that they don't fall behind. We've invested heavily in our pupil development grant, which is providing additional funding to schools, early years, and other settings, to enable disadvantaged learners to achieve their best educational outcomes, and in this financial year over £92 million of that was delegated directly to schools and educational settings so that they can support those families who they know need it. And you'll see, of course, additional funding to support children through the additional work we're putting in place for support for mental health, for example, so this is just one part of a wide suite of support that we are putting in place for families who are struggling. I'll just refer again to the commitment I did make at Finance Committee to share further details and information.