Item 4 on the agenda this afternoon is a statement by the Minister for Housing and Local Government on the building safety regime White Paper. I call on the Minister for Housing and Local Government, Julie James.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I am very pleased to speak to Members today about the launch of our White Paper, which proposes a new building safety regime for Wales. As Members will be aware, the White Paper was launched last week alongside a written statement, but I also felt that it was important to address you directly and provide an opportunity for comment and questions on this important area.

I know that this is a matter of great importance to Members, as evidenced by the many spirited and challenging questions and debates we have had on this topic already on the floor. I am sure that you would agree that this topic should be a priority of any Government. For us to successfully achieve this vision at pace, I truly believe this must be a shared vision that transcends party political lines. I am also pleased to offer for my officials to hold a technical briefing for all Members as this is a technical and complex area and I want to ensure that our proposals are clear and well understood. 

As I mentioned in my written statement, the changes we set out last week represent a significant step forward in our plans to improve building safety. The scope of the regime is extensive. This is because we want to ensure that safety is the primary consideration at all stages of a building’s lifecycle and that all multi-occupied buildings are covered by the new measures our regime proposes to put in place. The safety measures we propose to introduce are wide-ranging, but they are also proportionate, and, we believe, appropriately tailored to the different building categories that will fall in scope. 

Crucially, these changes must work for residents. As the ultimate beneficiaries of these reforms, I am particularly keen to hear their views. I have met and corresponded with many residents on the issues being faced at present with defects in existing buildings, and I will continue to do so. But it is also important that we seek their views on changes for the future; the lived experience of residents is critical to helping us find the right solutions. To help maximise resident engagement with our consultation, we have published a range of supporting documents and materials, such as the video I was hoping to play, Dirprwy Lywydd, but that's not been possible—I will make it available to Members, though—and an easy-read and quick-read version of the White Paper. I want to ensure that each and every person interested in or impacted by these changes can access and understand them, and share their views with us.

I repeat my desire also for there to be as much engagement with our consultation as possible from our stakeholders and partners across industry and the housing sector. Officials will be running engagement events and speaking with all interested parties about our proposals throughout the consultation period to help us gain as many responses as possible. I appreciate it is a very busy time for many, as we continue to navigate the challenges presented by COVID-19, but we really must not lose sight of our long-term goals. If these are to be realised, they require us to act and consider them now. Whilst publication of this White Paper is a significant milestone, there is much more work to do and we need the support and insights of all our parties to help us reach the right solution for Wales and ensure our homes are safe. Diolch.

I would like to place on record that, in principle, we very much support the bringing forward of a Bill that will actually ensure that our residents can feel safe in their homes and that we never, ever witness anything again like the Grenfell tragedy. As Dame Judith Hackitt has made clear, there is a need for a radical rethink of the whole system and how it works. She has described this situation as a

'race to the bottom caused either through ignorance, indifference or because the system does not facilitate good practice.'

Now, this Welsh Parliament needs to deliver the best quality and safest buildings possible in order that our residents can feel safe and comfortable in their homes. I appreciate that this is no easy task, as the comprehensive consultation document shows, but I thank the Minister for creating a White Paper that does outline a way forward for Wales. Frustratingly, though, the White Paper comes 32 months after Dame Hackitt's final report, and over three and a half years since the Grenfell tragedy.

In the White Paper, Minister, you have proposed that a joint inspection team be established for an initial period of two years. How realistic is it, do you feel, that it should take to establish a new building safety regime for Wales?

There are many points that I welcome in the proposals, and I'll say at this point that when we do come to scrutinise the Bill, it is such an important piece of legislation coming forward that we've all got to work across parties to ensure that the Bill does exactly what we're all hoping it will do.

So, I welcome some of the proposals, including a new general duty to maintain compartmentation; the aim of providing clarity with regard to who is responsible for safety in multi-occupied residential buildings, not just during the building of them but throughout the lifecycle—I think, too often, we've all been aware of everybody trying to pass the buck when it comes to finding out who the responsible person is, and that has to stop; making fire and rescue authorities specific consultees and having a single process for escalating concerns to the regulator.

The scope of the proposed regime would capture a house converted into two flats through to a high-rise apartment block. You are contemplating two categories; category 2 could encompass 37,000 properties and around 130,000 flats. Is it reasonable to have a house that is converted into two flats in the same category as a five-storey, purpose-built block of flats?

Now, consideration ought to be given to splitting category 2 in two. Whilst I'm aware that you could set out the legislation in a way that would allow category classifications to be amended via regulations, we need to get this right in the first place so that whatever the number of categories, all will be expected to have an annual fire risk assessment undertaken by a suitably qualified person. This is what I worry about: whether this could, potentially, be the Achilles heel.

Your team has already advised me that there are no estimates yet as to how many suitably qualified individuals there are presently in Wales to assess around 37,000 properties annually, and whether the new requirement would actually highlight a vast shortage of these qualified people, and whether it could see the cost and demand for the service rocket. That research does need to be commissioned, so I implore you to do this quickly and liaise with your Cabinet so to pursue a boost via education and bringing apprenticeships into the frame. Now, according to section 6 of the local authority, they would provide the building control function for all category 1 properties. It is noted that, where there are capacity issues in one authority, the service could be provided by another. So, would the other authority be financially resourced for the service? And can you provide further details about the consideration you have given already to existing capacity issues at local authorities? We know that it's some of these departments that have take the massive hit of some of the settlement problems that they've had as a result of poor local settlements, my own included here.

Now, I am very interested in the three gateways and note that the final one would require the principle contractor to produce a final declaration confirming that the building fully complies with building regulations. So, it would be down to the local authority to decide whether to accept that declaration, and we know now that, like with COVID, we're vastly behind with planning permissions. We're behind in planning enforcements, either through COVID or through a lack of resources. We know that—

Can you wind up, please?

Yes.

Can you wind up, please?

Right. The regulator is key to the major reform that is needed. The Hackitt report highlighted that the current regulatory regime is fractured, so why not be bold and pursue the option of a single national regulator?

I welcome this consultation, Minister, and hope that there will be quick and decisive progress to introduce legislation in the next Senedd, be it you or our party in power. Diolch yn fawr.

Well, thank you for that series of comments and questions, Janet, and I'm very pleased that you were able to get such a lot of detail from the technical briefing that we offered you. Actually, that's a good opportunity to show how valuable it was to other Members who might want to take part in it as well.

Deputy Presiding Officer, I don't plan to go through the list of technical issues that Janet raised there, because I don't think this is the place to do that. They're all very interesting. There are a number of issues that arise from the consultation, and the whole purpose of the consultation is to get to the bottom of what people feel the best outcome would be. So, I'd be very grateful, Janet, for you and others to put your responses in. You made a number of issues.

The capacity issue is an interesting one, though, because, obviously, local authorities have had 10 years of Tory-imposed austerity, and so they have had to strip back a large number of services. However, we've been working very hard with local government, particularly over the last year during their excellent COVID response, and they've developed a whole series of ability to share staff and mutual aid and, of course, in the Local Government and Elections (Wales) Bill, we've put a regional arrangement in place that allows them to employ staff regionally where staff are scarce, and it allows a different career path to develop. So, we are working very hard on the capacity issues. But, obviously, those should not stand in the way of us putting an excellent regime in place.

I'm delighted to hear you say that any Government after the election—that included your party—would want to take this Bill forward. I would very much like to hear that of every party in the Senedd, because we need to send a firm message to the building industry that this is coming and that they should step up to their duty to actually implement it now rather than us have the situation where they get planning consent that go on into the future, and we're actively pursuing the ability to impose the regulations the minute they're passed by the Senedd and not have to wait until planning permissions go forward and so on. So, we'll be taking up that point in particular.

But I won't go through the technical answers to all of the questions that you asked, Deputy Presiding Officer, but I would ask Members who have that level of detailed remarks to make to write them in to us as soon as possible so we can take them into account in the consultation.

Generally, Plaid Cymru welcomes this White Paper. Our understanding is that it will apply to new buildings only and won't be retrospective in terms of older buildings. So, can we have it on the record that the Government also wants to tackle problems in a retrospective manner too, because many people are living in flats that aren't currently safe? And I know that the Minister feels the same as I do on this, and people are unable to sell those properties because of terrible failings in the planning system over the past decades. We must require developers to take responsibility on this. And I know, again, that the Minister agrees with me on that, but I would like to know what the Government intends to do retrospectively.

Can you provide us with more detail as to how you're intending to do some things, please? I wanted to ask some questions on the accountable individual. What will happen when the accountable individual raises problems but they are ignored? Some measures are inadequate, and, in most cases, people won't want to put their positions at risk. What happens when that accountable individual leaves the role? Will the new appointee be responsible for decisions that had been taken before they took on that particular role?

And in moving, finally, to requirements in terms of engagement and resolving complaints, the White Paper notes that the regulator will have a role when problems can't be resolved. Can you be more specific, please, and outline how the Government intends to restore confidence in those bodies that have allowed a number of unacceptable situations to develop over the past few years? After all, the Grenfell residents were ignored over a period of years, and their complaints were treated in a very prejudicial manner. So, what steps can the Government take to ensure that such issues don't arise? Thank you.

Thank you, Delyth, for those comments and remarks, and I know you had the opportunity to have the technical briefing as well. The committee, I know, is having it as well, but I do recommend other Members take the technical briefing, because this is an immensely complex area and, as you rightly say, it's absolutely essential that we get it right and that it works for—it futureproofs the whole of the building industry. It's absolutely shameful that we've ever got to the position that we're in at the moment for a variety of historical reasons that I don't think particularly reflect well on anyone.

Just to say that there are two Bills in play here—there's the Bill that we will put through the Senedd for particularly Welsh regime issues, but we've also worked with our UK Government colleagues with their building safety Bill to take some measures forward as early as possible, because it wouldn't otherwise have been possible for us to legislate in the time. So, what we're hoping to do is, obviously, get the best of both worlds there. So, we'll have a system that suits particularly Welsh structures in local government and other areas, but we'll also be taking advantage of the UK Bill on building safety, and that will help us with industry. Obviously, we have a large number of builders in particular that operate, and developers that operate, across the UK and, indeed, actually, across northern Europe. So, that's very helpful.

The occupation phase of the proposals we're putting forward will of course apply to all buildings in Wales, once the legislation is passed. So, they'll apply to existing buildings as well as buildings that will be new build. So, all of the duties for who's responsible for ensuring fire safety and so on will apply to all buildings. It's the design, build and develop phase that obviously can't apply retrospectively. This debate today is not about the measures that we want to take for existing buildings. There are a whole range of issues that arise there, and we're in conversation with the UK Government, insurers and builders and developers and so on, and we're also getting expert legal advice on what is possible to help the very many residents. Your heart just goes out to the situation that people find themselves in. So, it's an immensely complex area to navigate through. So, we're in the process of doing that too.

What this White Paper proposes is a rigorous regime that will never allow this to happen again, to absolutely be sure that what we build for the future is fit for purpose and has a rigorous regime that holds people to account at the right place. And it will take advantage of a large amount of new technology as well. So, we wouldn't have spot checks any more and there'd be integrated planning and so on. We will have to work very hard with our local authority colleagues to ensure that we have the right amount of enforcement and the right insurance arrangements in place and that we have the right public service guarantees backing all the things that you've just talked about, Delyth, around accountable people and so on. So, there's a whole series of work to do.

The White Paper is out there to make sure, in particular, as I said in my statement, that we get the lived experience of residents into the new system so that we understand where they're coming from and we make sure that the problems that they've experienced are covered off in the new system. But I'm delighted to hear from you, as I knew I would, that your party too is determined to make sure that this regime is put into place as early as possible in Wales.

I might be on mute. No. Sorry. Diolch—it took rather longer to unmute than I expected then.

I agree with the Minister that this topic should be a priority for the Government; it is for very many of my constituents living down in SA1. For us to successfully achieve the vision at pace, I also believe there needs to be a shared vision that transcends party political lines. I'm very pleased to hear what you had from both the Conservatives and Plaid Cymru today. I agree the changes set out last week represent a significant step forward in plans to improve building safety; the scope of the regime is extensive. I also believe these changes must work for residents. Can I just turn to what is happening now? I have constituents in South Quay and Altamar in SA1 who are facing substantial costs. Quoting a constituent, 'We are owners in South Quay. We have received a letter that implies that each of the owners are likely to face a bill of tens of thousands of pounds to replace the cladding on the tower. I'm sure that, for many, this will result in them losing the value of their property at a fraction of its previous value, with all the attendant consequences.' And they say, 'Please keep me posted as developments occur, particularly in respect of the Welsh Government's previous undertaking'—as they understand it—'to cover the costs of recladding.' This is something that is causing a huge amount of worry, and really is causing sleepless nights to people living in these developments. Thank you.

Yes, absolutely, Mike. As I said, your heart goes out to people who are stuck in the aftermath of a regime that has not been fit for purpose. The whole point of this new regime is to draw a line in the sand and to make it much easier to get it right first time for developers and builders, and very much harder to get it wrong. So, you know, it works both ways. And then there's a whole system of enforcement and ultimate responsibility for various things, which is not at all clear in the current set-up. You'll be aware that my own constituency also has a large number of buildings that are caught in the same plight, and a large number of people—Senedd Members—have written to me about constituents in their own patches who've got all kinds of problems with it. So, we are working very hard indeed on trying to work our way through the really hideously complex legal issues that arise about contractual entitlements, insurance, competing claims for who's responsible for what and so on. And there is a whole series of complications around companies that have gone bankrupt or insurance clauses and so on that I'm very happy to talk through with your residents. 

What it has been necessary to do is it's been necessary to meet with groups of residents in particular blocks, because each block presents a unique set of legal difficulties, because they're all structured slightly differently and so on. So, it's even difficult to produce a generic one-size-fits-all scheme for them. But we're very happy to do that, Mike. So, if you want to invite me to come and meet with the residents, then I can certainly work through their current problems, but, obviously, the piece in front of us today is to make sure that those problems do not arise in the future.

Minister, I also want to speak for the leaseholders. They applied due diligence, and, because of catastrophic building regulation failure, inspection and, it has to be said, quality of build, they are now in blighted properties. Many of them are young, they want to start families, they cannot move, and they are in properties that are unsuitable to raise children. Now, there's only one way out of this catastrophic mess, and that is for Government to lead—UK Government, Welsh Government—with the developers and builders and the leaseholders, in a partnership approach. It's been four years, nearly, since Grenfell—we need a solution. Government must lead, it must provide resources. It has provided some to remove cladding, but that is by no means the majority of the problem, and it has the muscle to bring those errant builders and developers to book—those that are still in business, that is. We should not be leaving it to leaseholders, as we are at the moment, to take legal action against companies that could well be bankrupt, or impossible to trace because of the shell companies they use to disguise their poor practices. These leaseholders need action now—meet with the UK Government and please pass on our concerns.

Thank you very much, David Melding. You know that I share all of your concern and your outrage on behalf of your constituents. We have asked the UK Government to consider a number of measures in the building safety Bill, not least extending the contractual obligation period for developers and subcontractors, which is causing such a legal problem for people in these buildings where their contractual period has expired, and that's a very common problem, just as one example. I also agree with you that the UK Government—well, actually, it's a personal view, but my own view is that the only thing is a windfall tax to put on the developers is to make the fund big enough to cover off all of the problems, because the current funds that we're looking at don't touch the surface of it.

Also, you've identified the issue that removing the cladding only exposes the other problems that most of the buildings have, and so we're currently exploring with the fund for Wales what we can do to ensure that a range of building problems are fixed, the compartmentation being the biggest one of them, and, of course, the way that the cladding is held onto the building. We have funded the removal and replacement of all of the cladding and systems in the houses for social rent here, and we're exploring a way to do that amid the complexities of who is responsible for what in the buildings we know are affected in Wales. But we have, rest assured, lobbied the UK Government. I've also asked a number of Welsh MPs to do the same, and I'd be very grateful if Members of the Senedd would do that as well, as the UK building safety Bill proceeds on its way through Parliament.

Let me first of all declare an interest, in that I reside, in normal times, in one of the blocks that are the subject of the review of building safety in Cardiff. Minister, I welcome news of the White Paper today, some three and a half years on from those terrible scenes in London. I note that the number of such dwellings in Wales is much lower. However, the same protection should be afforded to all residents of these blocks, wherever they are. So, I welcome your stated intention to coincide with UK legislation and direction of travel where it is appropriate to do so.

I see that much progress has been made in rectifying some of the outstanding issues with existing buildings and that plans are in place for some, in the interests of residents who are badly affected in terms of their feelings of safety and security. When do you envisage that all relevant work will be completed? I'm also aware of residents in blocks where issues have been dealt with, but where fire safety certificates are actually defective. This means that their properties are unmortgageable, and they are stuck, literally with no way of moving on with their lives or their plans. So, how is this going to be addressed?

Considering the time left available to us in the Senedd term, it is right that the next Welsh Government remains obligated to put measures in place to make sure every building is safe and secure for its residents, so I look forward to seeing the results of the consultation on this White Paper and the embedding of building safety practices that we can be proud of, going forward. Thank you.

Thank you, Mandy Jones. The issues are really complicated, and, as I said in answer to previous questions, your heart absolutely does go out to people who are stuck, in particular, with leases that they can neither sell nor remortgage nor anything else. But the complication is that it isn't only small leaseholders that own leases in this building. Unfortunately, there are also property firms who are buying up the leases at a cheap price in the hope the Government will fix the equity. So, there will be thorny thickets ahead in terms of who is able to claim for what in these things. The whole purpose of the White Paper in front of us is to make it crystal clear in future where that responsibility lies, and, as I said in response to Mike Hedges, at the moment, you've got to look at each individual building to try and figure out where the responsibility lies, and that's just not good enough. So, this White Paper proposes a regime that makes that responsibility crystal clear; it will make who is responsible for ensuring it crystal clear. As I said, it will make it much easier to get it right first time and much harder to get it wrong, and it will clarify all of those things. And, frankly, it will build buildings that are fit for human habitation and long-term investment, which is what our housing model requires.

Just in terms of the social sector, we have made £10.5 million available again for remediation in the social sector, where we have houses for social rent. We're able to do that through existing structures in our grant structure. That isn't possible in the private sector, so we are looking to put a fund in place that would assist people. But, as I say, it's really complicated to understand how to structure that fund so that the right people can claim and that we are not making good the investments of speculators, for example. That's just one example, though, and that does not take away from the fact that I absolutely understand the plight of the individual leaseholders and the amount of money that they're being asked to pay on a daily basis. 

Thank you. And finally, John Griffiths. 

As Chair of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee, I very much welcome the Minister's statement today, along with the publication of the White Paper last week. The committee has taken a very close interest in all matters relating to fire safety since those horrific and tragic events at Grenfell in 2017, and in particular we've been pushing for necessary legislative change to be brought forward with pace, while also acknowledging the complexity of the issues and the need for a more coherent and whole-system approach. The publication of this White Paper I think is a very important stage in this ongoing work that will improve building safety across Wales. And, as a committee, we will be considering the White Paper in greater detail in the coming weeks and, as part of that, taking evidence from key stakeholders, including undertaking citizen engagement so that the most affected by the ongoing situation—residents and leaseholders—can give us their views directly. We will then respond formally as a committee to the White Paper. Can I say as well that I do welcome the pragmatic approach Welsh Government is taking, such as using UK Government legislation, so that we really can, hopefully, make some early progress on these matters? 

The Minister will be aware that we, as a committee, raised issues regarding the cost of remedial work and, obviously, as are others, we are very concerned at the incredible levels of stress and uncertainty at the moment on leaseholders, and that does need addressing urgently, as we've heard. I don't know if there's anything more you can say, Minister, in terms of your discussions with developers and how they're progressing and how close we are to some sort of movement in terms of developers, although we've heard of other possible ways of addressing these matters.

We've also heard issues relating to building control at a local authority level and, again, we were very concerned at the level of cuts to regulatory services over many years and the impact that's had on local authorities. I just wonder whether there's anything else you could say today, Minister, in terms of perhaps a comprehensive study on resource and capacity and how that could be taken forward. But I very much—

Can you wind up, please? Sorry, will you wind up, please?

Certainly, Dirprwy Lywydd. Okay, so the committee, then, very much looks forward to looking at the White Paper in more detail over the coming weeks, and we strongly welcome its publication. Diolch yn fawr. 

Thank you, John Griffiths. I'm really grateful for the work of the committee, and we look forward to working with you. I think you're having a technical briefing on 28 January. It would be really helpful for you to assist residents to set out their lived experience and then corral that for us into a report, which we'll be very much looking forward to receiving from you. 

As I've said before, I'm very keen on making sure that people's lived experience of the difficulties are taken into account when we design the new regime. We will also be working, as I said in answer to previous Members, with local authorities to look at the staffing and other capability and capacity issues for them. We are, of course, as part of our recovery from COVID-19, actually, discussing with the local authorities having a whole new wave of local authority public sector apprentices in all of the professions that local authorities have. So, we're already starting to look at retraining for a large number of the professions that we know are now in short supply after 10 years of Tory austerity, not least the environmental health officers who have now proved their worth so much during COVID-19 but who had previously been thought to be back-office staff, easily dismissed as not front-line workers. It just shows you that that kind of pejorative description of staff is never one that you should sit easy with. And here's another: building control officers now turn out to be absolutely vital in the fight to make sure that our buildings are correctly constructed. So, I will welcome working with the committee, John, and very much look forward to it over the next weeks and months.

Thank you very much, Minister.