Item 6 on our agenda is a debate on a Member's legislative proposal for a British Sign Language, BSL, Bill. And I'm pleased to say that this debate will be interpreted live into BSL for those watching on Senedd.tv today. And I call on Mark Isherwood to move the motion. Mark.

Motion NDM7478 Mark Isherwood

To propose that the Senedd: 

1. Notes a proposal for a Bill that would make provision to encourage the use of British Sign Language (BSL) in Wales, and improve access to education and services in BSL. 

2. Notes that the purpose of the Bill would be to:

a) ensure that the deaf community and people with hearing loss have a voice in the design and delivery of services to ensure they meet the needs of service users;

b) establish a BSL national advisory group to empower the BSL community in Wales;

c) require the Welsh Government to co-produce and publish a national BSL plan, and to establish strategic goals to improve the accessibility of public services, support services and enhance BSL skills across society.

d) require public bodies to co-produce and publish their own BSL plan to develop BSL awareness and training, and improve access to frontline services.

Motion moved.

Diolch. Based on official statistics, the British Deaf Association believe that 7,200 people in Wales use BSL, of whom 4,000 are Deaf. In October 2018, calls were made at the North Wales 'Lend me your ears' 2018 conference for British Sign Language legislation in Wales, looking at the 2015 British Sign Language (Scotland) Act, and their national BSL plan, published in October 2017, establishing a national advisory group including up to 10 deaf people who use BSL as their preferred or first language. Although the Wales Act 2017 reserves equal opportunities to the UK Government, Senedd lawyers have confirmed that a BSL (Wales) Bill would be compliant if it related to the exceptions listed in it.

The BSL (Scotland) Act was passed on 17 December 2015, marking a new era in the deaf community's campaign for the legal recognition of BSL across the UK. The Northern Ireland Assembly has also recently recommenced preliminary legislative work on both British and Irish sign languages. My proposed BSL Bill for Wales seeks to ensure that the deaf community and people with hearing loss have a voice in the design and delivery of services to ensure they meet the needs of service users, with actions including the establishment of a BSL national advisory group in Wales.

The British Deaf Association have told me that my proposed Bill is very important for their deaf members and supporters in Wales, who've been campaigning for a BSL Act in Wales for several years. Although they've been commissioned by the Welsh Government to develop a new BSL charter for Wales, they tell me that my, quote, 'planned BSL Bill is an enormous step forward, and if it's anything like the BSL Bill in Scotland, will receive unanimous and total support of all the parties.' 'It's a win-win', they said. They added their hope that this motion will be warmly received by the Senedd and convince the Welsh Government to establish a cross-party working group, where this coming together and working together was a critical factor in the success of the BSL Bill in Scotland.

My proposed Bill would make provision to encourage the use of BSL in Wales and improve access to education and services in BSL. In 2019, Deffo!, Wales's deaf youth forum, submitted a petition to the Senedd to improve access to education and services in BSL. They state their disappointment that nothing has happened since then and that one of the most important things is that BSL starts in early years and is continued through the whole of educational development. On National Deaf Children's Society—or NDCS—Cymru's advice, the Welsh Government established an advisory group on access to the new curriculum for BSL users and to develop guidance, which is currently out for consultation. However, an independent review of opportunities for families of young deaf children to learn sign language, published by the Welsh Government, confirmed NDCS's view that opportunities are far too limited, and that many families of deaf children want to learn to sign to aid communication with their deaf child, but feel unable to do so. The Royal National Institute for Deaf People state that weaknesses in the 2011 census resulted in many people who use BSL not being captured. They say that experience from Scotland has shown that their national advisory group have struggled to get local authorities to engage with and develop their BSL plans, suggesting that any future BSL legislation in Wales must place duties on local authorities and be sufficiently enforced. As they state, a BSL Bill would not be a means to an end in itself, but act as a platform to ensure improved services for the deaf community and people with hearing loss, and improve the support currently offered, so people can fully engage in things like employment and education. As they also state, the Bill should be seen as a piece of enabling legislation, to help focus efforts to improve BSL skills within public services and address communication support, so costs are not borne by the people who need additional help to tackle the barriers faced by D/deaf people and those with hearing loss, when the cost of BSL classes is so high. 

RNID staff want to see improved access to education and lifelong learning, employment, volunteering, media and news and arts, culture and leisure. It is the view of Senedd legal services that a Bill about British Sign Language similar to Scotland's British Sign Language (Scotland) Act 2015 would be within the Senedd's legislative competence, and the wording of my legislative proposal has been drafted with them to achieve this. The only potential issue will be whether this Bill would fall under the equal opportunities reservation under paragraph 187, Schedule 7A of the Government of Wales Act 2006. In January 2004, the Welsh Government recognised BSL as a language in its own right. The exclusion of language in the definition of equal opportunities reserved to the UK Government in the 2006 Government of Wales Act suggests that the equal opportunities reservation would not apply. Scotland is also subject to the equal opportunities reservation, and the Scottish BSL Act provides a good precedent for Wales, where Senedd legal services are not aware of any legal challenge to the Act by the courts. As a D/deaf constituent told me, 'This BSL Bill is important. BSL is a language in its own right, with its own grammar and vocabulary, which enables many of our deaf, deafblind, and hard-of-hearing citizens to learn, work, be creative, live life to the full and make their contribution to our culture and our economy.'

I hope Members will support my proposal accordingly. Thank you. 

First of all, can I put on the record that my sister is profoundly deaf and uses sign language? I will be supporting the Member's legislative proposal today, but we're so close to dissolution it is very unlikely to succeed in becoming law before we dissolve. But that's no reason not to support it. In 2018, the Petitions Committee produced four recommendations, all which I agreed with. If you want to know what it's like being deaf, put the television on, watch a drama and turn the sound off, because that's the life they live. That is what watching television is like for people who are deaf. 

The Welsh Government should support British Sign Language as a minority language, and encourage local authorities to recognise it as the first language of very many deaf people. Because you've got to remember that we have three first languages in Wales, and British Sign Language is one of them. And before somebody says, 'What about Welsh sign language?', because of the way sign language exists, it's much more akin to Japanese and Chinese and other languages that are based on pictures and signs, as opposed to vocabulary. 

The Welsh Government should give consideration to the development of a national charter for the delivery of services and resources, including the education of deaf children and young people. We need deaf people to be educated through sign language, because that's what they understand. We believe—and this what the Petitions Committee said—that a charter underpinned by the Equality Act 2010 would enable local authorities to plan and resource support, with a nationally recognised framework to ensure consistent arrangements throughout Wales—we haven't got consistency of provision; some areas are better than others—and the importance of sign language to actually get information across. The Petitions Committee also welcomed that the Welsh Government has indicated British Sign Language is actually being considered in the new curriculum. It needs to be part of the curriculum, not only for deaf children, but for children who aren't deaf, so that they can speak and correspond with children who are deaf.

A lot of basic sign language can be learnt relatively quickly, like a lot of most languages can be learnt very quickly. It gets much more difficult with time, but there are probably over 50 or 60 signs that would get you around quite well. So, it's really important. And, saying that, we should have a GCSE in sign language. We've got nowhere with that—'It's because there are not many applicants or potential applicants.' I've looked through some subjects the WJEC supports. A number of them have under 100 people entering them each year. So, that is no excuse. This just demands, and I really am pushing for this, somebody to take this on and show some leadership and aim of doing something on behalf of the deaf community in Wales. 

We need as a minimum to introduce a minimum standard of BSL qualification for learning assistants supporting deaf children and young people. There isn't any. I could work as a learning assistant in a school with deaf children because I know a small amount of sign language. I don't think I'd be suitable. I'm sure you don't think I'd be suitable either. 

Finally, we've had petitions, we've had debates, before, but I have come, unfortunately, around to the conclusion that the only way we're going to get action is by legislation. So, I will be supporting this legislative proposal, even though I'm doubtful that we will get it done before we break in March.  

I'm very pleased to support Mark Isherwood's motion, which asks us to note a proposal for a Bill that would make provision to encourage people to use British Sign Language in Wales and to increase access to education and services through the medium of BSL.

Now, over the years, as a GP, and, in more recent years, as chair of the cross-party group on deaf issues, I have become very much aware of the whole host of challenges facing the deaf community, including the range of solutions to those challenges, and Mike Hedges has spoken very well about those. BSL is one of those solutions. 

Now, in an ideal world, the majority of our population would, naturally, respect the rights of any minority, looking at everyone as being equal. But, as we know, that isn't always the case, with the expectation that the minority will comply with the priorities of the majority for all sorts of different reasons. So, we must safeguard the rights of the minority through law. We cannot rely on the goodwill of the majority. It is law that allows a change of attitudes, as Mike has just outlined. We have seen this in a number of areas already. And, in the linguistic context, we have seen legislation in the area of the Welsh language in order to secure rights and services through the medium of that language in Wales. Well, I would argue that the need is exactly the same with BSL. We need legislation. Mark Isherwood has already outlined the case in favour. There is a need, as many of my constituents have told me over these past few days, once they discovered that this debate was taking place today.

A Bill or a piece of legislation isn't going to transform the situation overnight, clearly, but it is a way of showing respect and giving credibility to valid beliefs on the dire need to develop further training, more job opportunities, better communication and, in general terms, to enhance the lives of deaf individuals within our nation. Although BSL is the only language of many of the deaf community in Wales, it does not have legal status. So, support this motion today in order to change that. Thank you.  

Firstly, I would like to thank Mark Isherwood for bringing forward a legislative proposal that would help us to create a better Wales. It is a sad fact, however, that the BSL community continues to face such challenges, even after the petition submitted by Deffo!, which then called on the Welsh Government to improve access to education and services in BSL to improve the quality of life for D/deaf people of all ages. Our nation has simply not delivered and I wholeheartedly agree with introducing the requirement that public bodies co-produce and publish their own BSL plan to develop awareness, training and improved access to front-line services.

As Members of the Senedd, we truly represent residents who use BSL, so I thought it essential that my own office team and I strove to learn. This should be the case across front-line, public-facing bodies in Wales, so that services are at least trying to be accessible to the around 7,500 people who not only use BSL, but rely on it in Wales. We need to empower this community. Now that requires us to have a Welsh Government that acts on the Children's Commissioner for Wales's findings that there is a blatant lack of support available to ensure that family members can use BSL. With a lack of communication skills, this, therefore, places an unnecessary and unfair barrier between BSL users and their families.

Now, a Government that addresses the terrible fact that only half of all adult BSL courses were fully funded by the Welsh Government, that has to change; a commitment to tackling the finding by the National Deaf Children's Society that not all online learning resources are accessible, despite schools being required to make provisions available under the Equality Act 2010; and legislation that helps to address the unacceptable fact that levels of support provided by local authorities vary, I can see no better way of achieving this than through this proposed Bill and the establishment of a BSL national advisory group. In fact, we could go so far as backing Professor Graham Turner's suggestion of a signing Parliament, to boost engagement in securing positive changes across Wales. We need to see progress, so I do hope that the Bill would also explicitly require the publication of BSL performance reviews.

I endorse all the comments made by the speakers previous to me today. I am pleased to be voting in favour of progress and this particular proposal, and I would ask all my Senedd colleagues to do the same. Thank you. Diolch. 

As the British Deaf Association has told us in their lobbying letter, Labour, Plaid and the Lib Dems have all committed to supporting a British Sign Language Act in their general election manifestos, so I hope that these proposals will get full support today. Like Janet, I learnt some basic British Sign Language when I first became an Assembly Member. I'm very sorry, I've already forgotten so much, but watching the signing at the Welsh Government's COVID press conferences makes me realise how important it is and it also makes me notice its absence at the UK briefings and I think that's worth me, as a Conservative, calling that out.

As I suggested in my short debate on modern foreign languages a couple of weeks ago, using another person's preferred or necessary language goes far further than a simple exchange of information; it makes you ask questions about others and questions about yourself. As Mike says, that's no different for British Sign Language either. And it's something that the new curriculum embraces, and I hope it's something that teachers will find exciting enough to want to teach, because it's something much bigger than perhaps we all expect. As the BDA says, BSL is not just a language, it's a gateway to learning, a path towards a sense of deaf identity and the means whereby deaf people survive and flourish in a hearing world, and that should surely interest us all. If twenty-first century schools are really about the twenty-first century, then deaf awareness should absolutely be built into every new design.

If the Welsh Government's been keen enough to look at Scotland for inspiration for minimum alcohol pricing and the new curriculum, I hope it'll do the same here. The Act that Mark has already mentioned has led to some positive improvements in service provision for BSL users in Scotland, with the Act upgrading BSL, as we heard, from a minority language to a language in its own right. But I think the key thing is that public services have started to pay attention. Glasgow City Council is creating a secondment opportunity for a deaf BSL user from another organisation to assist with their BSL work. Dundee City Council has a deaf person as an apprentice—the beginning of something really quite exciting. The Scottish Government and Scottish Parliament have created roles specifically tailored for deaf people. And 20 colleges and universities have already progressed well in terms of accessibility to their websites, application processes and student activities, as well as providing BSL training for staff and students, and there have been improvements in the other universities and colleges for interpreting provision as well. NHS Scotland, the health boards of Scotland, have done a lot of work to help implement the Act, although they still complain of a lack of deaf BSL representation and they're trying to deal with that.

So, it's quite right that there continue to be some challenges; a piece of legislation doesn't solve everything. The rural councils in Scotland are finding it difficult to access BSL interpreters, for example. But that need for BSL awareness and empowerment training, as well as collaboration across the public sector, is something that a piece of legislation can fix, and that then leads more widely, as a magnet, if you like, to more being done to empower deaf people through employment. So, it's not perfect, but at least they've started in Scotland, so we need to do that as well. Thank you.

Thank you. Can I now call the Deputy Minister and Chief Whip, Jane Hutt?

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I thank Mark Isherwood for bringing forward this important Member's legislative proposal and for the stimulating and important debate contributions from Members across the Chamber this afternoon? Also, I'll just say how important all of the purposes are of such a Bill that you put forward today in your proposal, Mark Isherwood, and I want to respond to all of those, as well as obviously noting your proposal.

I am very pleased to say that I was the Minister back in 2004, believe it or not, the health and social services Minister who enabled and supported the Welsh Government's stance that we would formally recognise British Sign Language as a language in its own right. That was back in 2004 and there are some Members here who'll recall that, who were there at the time. Actually, I do want to pay tribute to yourself, Ann Jones MS, as you were, with a former colleague, Karen Sinclair, very, very engaged at that time in making sure that the Welsh Government did respond. That was 2004—a long time ago—and at that time we were breaking new ground, and I always remember Karen Sinclair, as you reminded me this morning, Ann, speaking, as we did at the lectern, having a signer there on that occasion in 2004. So, just one of your legacies, Ann Jones, from your time here in this Senedd.

But it was important to make that statement back then in 2004, and since then we've supported training to increase the number of qualified interpreters in Wales, and ensured that all legislation, policies and programmes across Wales recognise the importance of accessible communications. I very much welcome the fact that we have a signer here today. Also, thank you, Suzy Davies, for acknowledging that, actually, awareness is raised by having a BSL interpreter at the Welsh Government COVID-19 press conferences. In fact, we were the first Government in the UK to do this, and it does make a clear statement, but it ensures that the language is accessible.

Of course, we know that more needs to be done. We have been exploring options to develop a national BSL charter for the delivery of services and to provide resources to deaf children, young people and their families, and that's come over very strongly in the debate and in Mark Isherwood's proposal. I recently agreed funding for the British Deaf Association to undertake an audit of our BSL policies and provision in the Welsh Government. The audit is crucial to show where we're going, what the gaps are and what we need to do. That work has just commenced. It will conclude in July of this year; it will result in a report; it will assess the Welsh Government's policies and services, and recommendations will come from that to inform an action plan and proposals for ongoing engagement with the deaf community. Whilst the proposal for the BSL Bill, as I said, is duly noted and recognised, we do need to review this at that stage, once the British Deaf Association's audit and recommendations on Welsh Government services and policies is complete.

In the Welsh Government, we have put in place a very good mechanism in which the views of our stakeholders are heard. Our disability equality forum, which I chair, covers membership from a wide range of stakeholders, including the Wales Council for Deaf People and the Royal National Institute for Deaf People. The forum provides an opportunity for all partners to advise and influence the Welsh Government on the key issues that affect disabled people in Wales, increasingly important during COVID-19, when the forum has met frequently, ensuring the voices of disabled people are heard.

We did set up, last June, the accessible communications group to overcome barriers and improve access to information during the COVID-19 pandemic. The outcome of the group's work is currently being finalised. A commitment is forthcoming from the Welsh Government to provide more information in a number of communication formats, including BSL.

As part of the BSL audit process, the British Deaf Association is arranging a number of events with the deaf community in Wales to ensure that deaf people have an opportunity to express their views and share their experiences of accessing services provided by the Welsh Government. We will ensure the involvement of as many deaf people as possible in the planning and action stages as part of our co-production values, which I know Mark Isherwood would welcome.

The Welsh Government is currently consulting on the Curriculum for Wales's BSL non-statutory guidance. As with other aspects of the Curriculum for Wales, this draft guidance has been developed through a process of co-construction. The guidance will be refined to reflect feedback from the consultation; it'll be published in autumn 2021 as part of the languages, literacy and communication area of learning and experience. The Curriculum for Wales will be rolled out, of course, as we know, from 2022.

Also, officials recently commissioned the Learning and Work Institute to undertake a round-table event in March 2021 to engage with the deaf community and wider stakeholders on the recommendations from the independent review of BSL provision for adults in Wales, and that independence is crucial so that we get this right. We'll focus on the demand for BSL, consideration of how provision is currently delivered, what improvements could be made, and where there are gaps in provision and access. That will, of course, inform further policy considerations for BSL provision for adults in Wales.

Finally, Deputy Presiding Officer, we've got the BSL audit and BSL consultation engagement event, a strong basis to consider our BSL support services in Wales, how they might be improved and how skills may be enhanced right across Wales. Once the audit process is complete, we anticipate signing up to the British Deaf Association's BSL charter. As an organisation, this will allow us to lead by example and promote good practice, and, indeed, consider those opportunities that we have, as you've brought forward today, Mark Isherwood.

Could I just finally say that next week, of course, as we celebrate St David's Day, there will be a BSL choir showcasing Wales to the world? I hope you will take note of that as we celebrate St David's Day. Diolch yn fawr. 

Thank you. No Member has indicated that they wish to make an intervention, therefore, I'll ask Mark Isherwood to briefly reply to the debate. Mark.

Thank you. Well, I thank Mike Hedges for his comments: 'The proximity of the election is no reason not to support this proposal; we need leadership to do something on behalf of the deaf community in Wales.' Dai Lloyd: 'There is a need for this legislation; we must safeguard the rights of a minority through the law.' Janet Finch-Saunders says, 'This legislation will help us create a better Wales, making services more accessible to people who rely on BSL in Wales.' Suzy Davies says that BSL is not just a language, but a sense of identity, and deaf awareness should be provided in every school. The Deputy Minister, Jane Hutt, as I've said in my speech, reminded us that in 2004 the Welsh Government recognised BSL as a language in its own right, but as D/deaf people across Wales have told me, although this was necessary, it is not sufficient.

Deafness is not an intellectual impairment, yet D/deaf learners generally have a lower educational attainment than hearing children. That's a disgrace. The Children's Commissioner for Wales has previously identified a lack of support available to ensure that family members can use BSL—a disgrace. As the British Deaf Association state,

'BSL is not just a language; it is also a gateway to learning, a path towards a sense of Deaf identity, and the means whereby Deaf people survive and flourish in a hearing world.'

Giving BSL full legal status in Wales would ensure that it has the same protection as the Welsh language. Existing legislation does not meet the needs of BSL users or the wider D/deaf community. As BDA Scotland said, in evidence received by the Scottish Parliament's Education and Culture Committee on the British Sign Language (Scotland) Act 2015, the UK Equality Act 2010

'accords rights to individuals to protect them from discrimination but it does not protect or promote BSL as a language.'

The same applies to existing Welsh legislation. I urge all Members to support this motion accordingly.

The proposal is to note the proposal. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I see objections, therefore we'll vote at voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.