The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Rebecca Evans, and amendment 2 in the name of Mark Isherwood. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

The next item is the Independent Alliance for Reform group debate on investment in schools. I call on Caroline Jones to move the motion. Caroline Jones.

Motion NDM7606 Caroline Jones

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Recognises that the lack of investment in school infrastructure over recent decades has resulted in many schools not being fit for purpose.

2. Welcomes recent investment such as the 21st Century Schools Programme, but regrets the fact that this is being used as a vehicle by local education authorities to merge schools.

3. Calls upon the Welsh Government to:

a) put a halt on the creation of super schools which are detrimental to the learning experience of young people;

b) ensure that local education authorities do not use a lack of investment as an excuse to close community schools; and

c) issue guidance to local education authorities to ensure that school pupils do not have to travel more than 15 minutes by car or public transport to attend their nearest school.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. I formally move the motion tabled in my name. From a young age, I learnt a valuable lesson—that bigger is not always better. I was perhaps 12 when my small community school was merged with a much bigger one. We lost the personal relationships with our teachers, becoming just another face in the sea of faces. Thankfully, back then, such mergers were rare, and community schools were allowed to continue offering quality personal teaching. Unfortunately, successive Governments of all political hues failed to invest in those schools, allowing far too many of them to fall into disrepair. While we welcome the recent investment via the twenty-first century schools programme, it is too little, too late for many community schools forced to close not because they offered poor education—far from it—but because it was more cost-effective to close them and transfer their pupils to a superschool.

In my own region, Neath Port Talbot council, with their laughably titled strategic school improvement programme, closed Cymer Afan Comprehensive School and primary schools in the Afan valley to create a new 1,200-pupil co-educational school for pupils aged three to 16. The council went against the wishes of pupils, parents and elected officials. Councillors Scott Jones, Ralph Thomas and Nicola-Jayne Davies fought tooth and nail for their communities. Parents even took the council to the High Court and their case was dismissed, not because it had no merit, but because the judges ruled that judicial review was not the appropriate way to enforce the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015.

These mergers are not about improving the education of young people; they are, above all, about saving money. Local authorities have been allowed to rip the hearts out of many communities in order to protect budgets and to avoid hundreds of millions of pounds of repair backlogs. These superschools are usually far away from a lot of the communities that they serve, forcing pupils into long commutes. It's not unusual for pupils to face a two-hour round trip each day. Not only is this detrimental to the well-being of young people and can impact their educational attainment, but it forces pupils to abandon active travel. If it takes an hour by car or bus, how could young people be expected to walk or cycle? And we are in a climate emergency, but yet again, we're putting economics before the environment. To save costs, we're forcing more and more young people to rely upon vehicular transport, rather than planet-friendly active travel. What message does that send to future generations?

I urge Members to reject the amendments put forward and to support our motion. Thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

[Inaudible.] I do apologise. I was speaking at full pelt, but I was on mute, unfortunately. So, I should say that there are two amendments to the motion, and if amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on the Minister for Education to formally move amendment 1.

Amendment 1—Rebecca Evans

Delete all and replace with:

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Believes that all children and young people should have the opportunity to learn in the best learning environments.

2. Recognises that local authorities are responsible for planning school places and choosing an appropriate learning model for a particular area.   

3. Notes that when making major changes to schools, including school closures, local authorities must comply with the School Organisation Code and take into account a range of factors, the prime concern being the interests of learners.

4. Welcomes that the Welsh Government:

a) has prioritised investment in the schools and colleges estate and continues to do so through its 21st Century Schools and Colleges Programme;

b) will invest in excess of £300 million in our schools and colleges this year; the highest annual spend since the programme commenced;

c) scrutinises investment in the 21st Century Schools and Colleges Programme to ensure that active travel is a key part of the new provision; and

d) is reviewing the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008, which sets the conditions under which local authorities are required to provide home to school travel for learners, to ensure that it remains fit for purpose.

Amendment 1 moved.

Thank you. You had me slightly concerned there for a minute, Llywydd. I formally move.

Thank you. I call on Suzy Davies to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Mark Isherwood.

Amendment 2—Mark Isherwood

Delete point 3 and replace with:

Calls on the Welsh Government to:

a) end the underfunding of pupils in Wales;

b) deliver fair funding for local authorities to protect rural schools;

c) bring forward projects in phase B of the 21st Century Schools and Colleges Programme to start rebuilding Wales;

d) ensure that all new schools are designed in a disability-aware way;

e) resist the creation of super schools and ensure no school is closed against community wishes;

f) ensure that local education authorities cannot use a lack of investment as an excuse to close local schools; and

g) conduct a Wales-wide audit of the condition of the existing estate for Welsh medium provision.

Amendment 2 moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. I have never been to any schools that merged, like Caroline Jones, but I have been to some that have burnt down, and that's definitely a way of getting a new school—not that I recommend it, of course. 

Can I thank the IAR group for tabling the debate today? As you'll see from our own amendment, there's quite a bit of the motion that we agree with, and really, it's only 3(c) of the motion that we have an issue with. I do want to say upfront that we are very supportive of the twenty-first century schools programme, it's just that we, like this group, have some questions about its implementation in some cases. I just want to say that I think the particular ask for a 15-minute drive time is a pipe dream in parts of rural Wales today, let alone in the future. But I think we should look at that experience to make sure that its downsides aren't replicated in more populated areas.

I share Caroline's suspicion about how twenty-first century school applications can be used as a response to inadequate maintenance funding for councils, and even other agendas, such as the starving out of sixth forms. We saw something along those lines with St Joseph's in Port Talbot—a faith school that had retained its sixth form in a borough where all other post-16 English language education was delivered at further education colleges.

Communities and their needs change due to residential development and the drive for more Welsh-medium schools, so new strategically located schools are needed, but that impacts on local authority budgets in two ways. Firstly, there's a temptation to let more difficult parts of the estate slowly decay, which means reducing revenue maintenance costs, because a part-funded replacement capital asset sounds like quite a prize. And then, secondly, 22 local authorities trying to plan for their own footprints, regardless of attempts at collaborative working, can drive adverse behaviours and prevent more strategic and efficient decisions. I think particularly again of the Afan valley, where reconfiguration resulted in the creation of a primary school of 400 pupils, and then not even in a new building.

There's no doubt that a modern and well-designed building can assist learning. Blended learning may well be a consideration for design in the future, but you have to be able to afford the teachers as well. Members will have heard Welsh Conservatives many times call on the Government to bite the bullet on funding reform. Going back to design and point (d) of our amendment, I realise that accessibility should already be baked into design, but I do wonder whether some of these high-ceilinged atria that we see in these new schools are that great for deaf children. On a different point, toilet provision—how much thought is given to privacy and dignity and the number of units, particularly for girls? A big 'no' to gender-shared toilets as standard.

Location matters as much as design. The Bae Baglan superschool is a glorious building, but David Rees will remember well that dreadful walking route to the new school from Cwrt Sart, which was anything but an inducement to active travel. And finally, Welsh-medium schools—they're often left to occupy much more high-expense buildings, be they from the turn of the century or just falling apart, like Ysgol y Ferch o'r Sgêr in Cornelly in my own region. That's a disincentive to families considering Welsh-medium education and deserves priority attention in the twenty-first century schools programme. Diolch, Llywydd.

I fear that the motion and the Conservative amendment take certain issues for granted without evidence to support them. There are a number of large schools in my constituency providing excellent education to the pupils. There are also many small schools in my constituency providing excellent education to their pupils. It's also true to say that the size of a school can have a negative or a positive impact on the quality of education. I've seen large schools being run in a very effective manner, creating small spaces and being flexible in the way that their staff's skills are used to the greatest extent for the benefit of pupils. I've seen small schools doing excellent work despite the problems and challenges that they face. There are many factors affecting the quality of education, and I would argue that excellent teachers inspiring pupils and raising their expectations are a crucially important factor. That can happen in large schools and small schools alike.

I'll turn now to another issue addressed in the motion, namely the journey from home to school. The Government amendment mentions that there is a review of the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008. Section 10 of that Measure includes a general duty that every local authority and Welsh Ministers must promote access to education and training through the medium of Welsh when they exercise functions under the Measure. In the guidance document published in 2014, the Welsh Government confirms that local authorities must act upon that duty to promote Welsh-medium education and training in deciding upon the closest appropriate school. But, the suggestion that the closest school could be appropriate although it doesn't provide the language of choice is unacceptable and emanates from the fact that the concept of an 'appropriate school' is defined very narrowly in the Measure, in a way that makes no reference to its appropriateness in terms of the medium of the language of the education provided. This does appear as a fundamental weakness in trying to look at the responsibilities emerging from the legislation. So, any review that happens needs to take full account of that point and, also, of the court decisions recently on Welsh-medium education in the Rhondda Cynon Taf area.

I note that the original remit of this review has now been expanded to include the 4 to 16 age group as well the post-16 age group, so there is an opportunity here to make a difference. I suppose this will now be a matter for the next Senedd, in terms of any changes emerging from the review, and it is disappointing that there hasn't been progress made during this term. So, thank you for the opportunity to make those comments, and although we agree with elements of the motion and elements of the amendments, there are also elements that we are unable to support, and therefore we will be voting against them today. Thank you, Llywydd.

I call on the Minister for Education to contribute to the debate.

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. The twenty-first century schools and colleges programme is the biggest investment in our education estate since the 1960s, having already seen £1.5 billion investment to improve the learning environment for our children and young people. And since its launch in 2014, it's seen the delivery of 170 new or refurbishment projects under the first wave of the investment, and a further 200 projects are proposed under the second wave of investment, which began in 2019. Indeed, this financial year—2020-21—under the most difficult of circumstances, we will see the highest annual spend so far under the programme, of almost £300 million in our schools and colleges.

Can I begin by welcoming the points that Siân Gwenllian made around excellence in all types of schools—small schools, large schools, primary, secondary and in our through schools? And it is that leadership and excellent teaching that really makes a difference. But, being able to do that in a building that is fit for purpose, I would argue, is also really important, and sends a very clear message to both our teachers and our children that their education and the work that goes on in those buildings is really important to us.

Now, Caroline Jones also raised the issue of maintenance budgets for local authorities for schools. Can I just say, Caroline, above and beyond the twenty-first century programme, every single year I have been the Minister for Education, we have been able to provide local authorities across Wales with millions of pounds worth of additional maintenance moneys to support their schools? Indeed, only on Monday of this week, I announced an investment of £50 million to be shared between the local authorities of Wales precisely for this purpose of schools maintenance.

Now, the success of the twenty-first century programme is a reflection of the partnership working which is key to its delivery, and it's important that our key stakeholders, local authorities, and colleges are strategic in their investment, and deliver the right schools and colleges in the right places to meet local community needs. And it's important that those decisions are made to benefit local communities, and that's why we have not been prescriptive, as school delivery models can and do differ between communities. As you well know, local authorities have the responsibility for planning school places to ensure that their children and young people have the very best environment in which to learn, and each one of those decisions will be unique to those communities, and I believe that our local authorities are best placed to understand what fits the needs for their learners.

The school organisation code sets a high standard for consultation if there are changes to that pattern of delivery, and all of those with an interest have an opportunity to have their views heard and known, and for these to be taken into account when any major changes are proposed for schools. The code ensures that a range of factors are considered, primary of which is the interests of learners, but distance to travel is also a factor. I know that Members have expressed concerns that some local authorities are carrying out consultations under the school organisation code during this pandemic, and I would draw Members' attention to additional guidance that we have produced for local authorities on how they should go about such consultations during this pandemic.

Siân Gwenllian raised the issue of the learner travel Measure, and she is right to point to the review. She raises an interesting issue with regard to what is deemed to be a suitable school and how language is not stated in those particular sections. Can I just say, I was fortunate enough to be on the committee that looked at that Measure when it came before the then Assembly? I think the Deputy Presiding Officer was on the committee with me at that time, and I'm sure the Deputy Presiding Officer could confirm that this issue was discussed, at length, as a potential approach but was rejected by the then Minister, Ieuan Wyn Jones, as being inappropriate, but the learner travel Measure gives us an opportunity to relook at those decisions.

Now, the school organisation code not only recognises the potential for school closures but for those situations where schools should remain open, and in some circumstances, it is more appropriate for existing schools to be refurbished, remodelled or extended, and all of those things are possible under the twenty-first century schools programme. Members will also be aware that I have put in place special arrangements, when rural schools are considered, to ensure that the best decisions are made for learners in those settings.

In order to support the delivery of the twenty-first century programme, we've also incorporated streams that look at childcare facilities, Welsh-medium delivery—and Suzy Davies is correct: when I think of the history of the development of Welsh-medium primary education in the town of Brecon, they were moved into a school that had been deemed unfit and had been left by the English-medium pupils, and that's where they found themselves. Now, fortunately, they have a new build, and during my time as Minister, we have provided 100 per cent capital funding for local authorities to build more Welsh-medium places. That fund was oversubscribed, and I am considering whether we can provide further assistance of this kind to support our aim for 1 million Welsh speakers. We also have a stream that has looked to reduce infant class sizes and to support faith-based education, and, where possible, to support the development of community hubs at school premises. So, no one funding model fits all, so we have a variety of ways in which we can support developments.

We've already seen the positive impact that new and refurbished primary and secondary schools have made to learners, greatly enhancing their learning experience. And we've also seen that all-through schools are beneficial in certain community settings, allowing for a single leadership and management team, providing greater consistency of learning and teaching, and greater continuity and familiarity for the learner. However, we also recognise that policy guidance is needed to inform future decisions about the creation of all-age schools, and the aspects of pedagogy associated with them, well-being and leadership. All of those things need careful consideration, recognition and support, and that's why we're supporting the all-age schools network to undertake school-based research, and have done so since 2019, and an Estyn thematic survey of all-age schools to focus on the benefits and challenges of that all-age model. So, we're not ploughing on regardless; these are interesting new models that are being developed by local authorities of all political hues in Wales, and we're working with them to have research, to understand the benefits and the challenges of such models.

I am, representing a rural constituency, very mindful of the impact that long journeys have on our children and pupils, but for a range of reasons, introducing a maximum travel time is not considered to be practically feasible, as Suzy Davies suggested. What might constitute an appropriate theoretical travel time in one local authority is very unlikely to be applicable for all. School investment is not just about providing buildings; it's about making them fit for purpose to deliver the best learning environment, and I'm really proud of how investment so far has improved facilities and has had a positive impact on learning, teaching and meeting the needs of local communities. And I'm really pleased that the partnership approach, with our local authorities and with our colleges, is working well and giving them the flexibility to identify the best learning solutions for their specific areas. But thank you very much for the opportunity to celebrate the success of the twenty-first century schools programme. Diolch yn fawr.

I now call on David Rowlands to reply to the debate.

Yes, diolch, Llywydd. Can I thank all those who've contributed to this debate? But, as always, the arguments put forward by my colleague Caroline Jones are largely ignored. The Welsh Government says it is committed to a zero-carbon economy in Wales and that active travel is to play a significant role in achieving their goals, but a policy of school centralisation will, as Caroline Jones pointed out, almost undoubtedly negate the ability of our schoolchildren to engage in either walking or cycling to school. Not only are we centralising our schools, we are centralising parts of schools, with the introduction of sixth-form colleges—a policy vehemently opposed by many of the teaching community. Amongst other things, it removes the vital element of role modelling that sixth-form pupils often bring to the school environment. Again, it's totally against the environmental principles of Government policy. In my own constituency of Torfaen, we have seen the establishment of a sixth-form college in Cwmbran, which will be attended by pupils from towns such Blaenavon, some 10 miles away in the north of the borough. There is the added uncertainty that winter months could see considerable disruption to school attendance with adverse weather conditions. Blaenavon in the north of the county experiences much more snow than does the south of Torfaen. 

Yes, it is true to say that the Welsh Government has spent a great deal of money on improving many of the schools right throughout Wales. However, we will question whether that money has been spent wisely. As Caroline has intimated, the move to large occupant—very large—teaching institutions means that our schoolchildren are totally losing out on the personal interaction with their teachers, and even with their fellow pupils. Schools of 1,200 pupils or more are nothing less than battery-learning institutions, where teachers do not know each other, let alone their pupils. Almost every large school in Torfaen is failing by Estyn standards, with most being in special measures. Bullying is a serious problem in these schools, causing misery to thousands of our schoolchildren. It is time to halt this shift to these mega schools and concentrate on smaller, more intimate units where pupil-teacher relationships can build trust as well as imparting knowledge. Thank you. Diolch, Llywydd.

Thank you. The proposal therefore is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, I see that there objections, and we will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time. 

Voting deferred until voting time.

And that brings us to voting time, so we will take a short break to prepare for the votes. Thank you.

Plenary was suspended at 17:42.

The Senedd reconvened at 17:47, with the Deputy Presiding Officer in the Chair.