Item 8 on our agenda this afternoon is a debate on the petitions concerning the development of a new Velindre Cancer Centre, and I call on the Chair of the Petitions Committee to move the motion. Janet Finch-Saunders.

Motion NDM7609 Janet Finch-Saunders

To propose that the Senedd:

Notes the following petitions concerning the development of a new Velindre Cancer Centre:

a) Petition P-05-1001 'Hold an independent inquiry into the choice of site for the proposed new Velindre Cancer Centre' which received 5,348 signatures;

b) Petition P-05-1018 'Support for the current proposed plans to build a new Velindre Cancer Centre, Cardiff, in any future inquiry' which received 11,392 signatures.

Motion moved.

Thank you. Again, on behalf of the Petitions Committee, I’d like to thank the Business Committee for agreeing to schedule this debate. Like the one we've just held, this debate also concerns two petitions. These relate to the proposal for a new Velindre Cancer Centre in Cardiff. Velindre University NHS Trust is proposing to build a new centre on land to the north of its current site in Whitchurch, north Cardiff. This would replace its existing facilities, which have been operational for 60 years. The trust has stated that the current centre

'does not have the facilities or space to meet the needs of the increasing number of people diagnosed with cancer'.

Their intention for the new build is to provide modern facilities to treat more patients and help people to live longer with cancer. Subject to approval and funding, construction is due to begin in 2022 and the new centre to be operational from 2024. Now, the plans have met with both significant local opposition and support. Petitions have been received from both of those perspectives. So, I will now briefly outline the details of both.

The first petition was received from Amelia Thomas on behalf of Save the Northern Meadows Campaign. It collected 5,348 signatures and calls for an independent inquiry into the choice of site for the proposed new Velindre Cancer Centre. The group behind this petition have raised a number of concerns with the proposals. In opening this debate, I do not have the time to refer to all of them, however, they can be summarised in two main aspects, both of which relate to the proposed location of the centre.

The first aspect of concern to the petitioners is the loss of green space, known locally as the northern meadows. This is where Velindre NHS Trust propose to build the new cancer centre, close to their existing site. The land is owned by Cardiff and Vale NHS trust and outline planning permission has previously been granted for housing on the site by Cardiff council. The petitioners express concern over the loss of green space for ecological and environmental reasons, as well as in relation to the impacts on local residents. They have also raised concerns over flooding.

The second major concern relates to whether a stand-alone site is the right model for future cancer services. The petitioners, as well as some clinicians, have argued that the centre would be better co-located on an acute hospital site. They highlight the continued development of complex cancer treatments, which they state mean that co-location is a more suitable long-term model, with non-surgical treatments delivered in the same location as acute care and surgery. Ultimately, the petitioners have called for the proposal to be subject to independent clinical review before a decision is made by the Welsh Government as to whether to support the business case for the new centre.

I will now move to the second petition. This supports the proposals for the new centre and was submitted in response to the first petition. It calls on the Government to support the plans to build a new Velindre Cancer Centre, and was submitted by Natasha Hamilton-Ash with a total of 11,392 signatures. The petition highlights the advantages that a new hospital will bring to patients, stating that it is needed urgently to deliver the necessary improvements to services. They argue that it will be in a more easily accessible location for the vast majority of patients, as well as being able to deliver fit-for-purpose services to an increased number of patients in a modern facility. They have argued that the proposed location, in green space with improved access, will be a positive and will aid patient recovery, due to the natural setting and healing architecture.

Overall, the main view that has been strongly expressed by those supporting this petition is the need for a new centre at the earliest opportunity, pointing to the inadequate size and facilities of the existing site. The petitioners call for the Welsh Government to back the current plans and support Velindre NHS Trust to build the centre as quickly as possible.

Now, there is significantly more detail that sits behind both of these petitions, but the time available for us requires that I should now draw these opening remarks to a close. I am sure that other Members will have points they wish to make about both sides of this argument. I also hope that the Minister will be able to provide an update for us today on the current position in his response to the debate. The Petitions Committee is aware that there are constraints that prevent him from offering a wider view on the development, given the role that he does have in making final decisions on this proposal. Nevertheless, any further information or clarity on when and how those decisions will be taken would be very welcome to all involved, I am sure. Thank you. Diolch.

I look at the Nuffield report that relates to these two conflicting petitions, and it makes it clear that we cannot go on delivering these services in a hospital building that is well past its sell-by date. If we want to improve cancer survival rates for the population of south-east Wales, we really do have to take things forward now, and we can't go on delaying decisions.

It has to be—. Redevelopment has to be a vehicle for reshaping services to better meet patients' needs, including being treated closer to home, but still getting that expertise concentrated at a Velindre centre. Velindre is a stand-alone trust for a reason. It is not part of a health board, because it has to have a culture that is quite distinct. The word 'cancer' alone causes terror in many people's minds, so one of the most important things that Velindre does is to reassure patients that, in most cases, cancer is not a death sentence. But the treatment of cancer is not a mechanical process, and a positive attitude and a focus on the quality of life is an essential part of the treatment and care process. And patients and their families need to be supported with the decision that is right for them in their particular circumstances.

So, this is not a Cardiff service; this is a service for the whole of south-east Wales. And whilst the majority of its services are either ambulatory chemotherapy, which can be delivered elsewhere and, as far as I understand, is, its radiotherapy services are, at the moment, concentrated at Velindre, because the cost of building these linear accelerators—LINACs, apparently, they're called—is a huge capital investment, very expensive and has to be built in a massive concrete bunker. So, up to now, all these LINACs have been at Velindre. But I note that the new Velindre plan includes one LINAC at Nevill Hall, and of course that is really important for patients, because it reduces the travel burden for patients and their carers, and, when you're unwell, that's really important. And it's also part of our attempt to tackle the inverse care law. 

Clearly, it's really important that this should not just be consumed by any general hospital, and, for me, the idea of building on the Heath site at the moment seems completely impossible. The Heath site is incredibly busy. Until recently, it was being used as a rat run for commuters, and the Nuffield report is quite clear that at the moment, this is just not an option. Maybe when we have a new University Hospital of Wales, then maybe you could see some sort of incorporation on the same site, but co-location cannot mean absorption. So, it seems to me that if Cardiff University want to build a new cancer research centre, I don't understand why they aren't thinking of co-locating it with Velindre, which is currently not possible on the Heath site. You can't deliver a new Velindre centre while you're also delivering patient care to sick people, so it seems to me that the closure of the Whitchurch hospital does provide a golden opportunity to build back better an environmentally sensitive centre of excellence in line with some of the points made—

The Member does need to wind up, please.

—by the petitioners. So, I don't think this discussion is going to be resolved today, but it does need to be resolved fairly soon, but there's a lot of money involved and it's really important we get this right. 

Thanks for the opportunity to speak in this debate. It's an unusual one in that it brings together two conflicting petitions, two contrasting opinions about the same issue. And it's a really important issue, the future of cancer services in the south-east of Wales, and whatever the particular issues at play here, however strong the opinions are about a number of different aspects of this, it's the quality of those cancer services that is of utmost importance.

I did serve on the Petitions Committee for a while, but that's some time ago, so I've had no dealings directly with these petitions as such, but over recent months, I have in my role as Plaid Cymru shadow health and care Minister been lobbied by both sides of the debate, spoken to people, listened to arguments by both supporters and opponents of the proposal currently on the table, and I've met clinical leaders and senior management at Velindre. I'd say I've tried to learn as much as I can about the issues at stake here.

So what have I concluded? I've already set out my views, actually, in correspondence with a number of people who've contacted me in the run-up to this debate, but firstly, I'll say what I'm not commenting on: I note the campaign locally on the proposal to develop on that piece of land called the northern meadows, but I think in my health and care role, I don't believe it's for me to comment on the planning issue, if you like, and the impact on local amenity and that kind of thing; those are issues for the local population. I've also taken note of various associated environmental arguments that have been put forward. Again, I understand that those are very important to many people, but not ones for me to comment upon really.

So, my interest here is in the future of cancer services and in making sure that the best possible services are developed, the best possible outcomes are sought, and balanced with the speed at which improvements can be delivered, and I certainly hope that everyone can agree that that is the most important issue here.

Services provided at Velindre and the work of the staff, their dedication and their skills, they're hugely valued, and I certainly don't doubt at all the belief of clinical leaders at Velindre that the plan that they do have on the table is robust, that it forms part of what could transform cancer services in the region. I've spoken with them about the plans; they wouldn't back plans that they didn't think would work, and they're people who've dedicated their professional lives to fighting cancer, and they're people I respect hugely.

At the same time, I've also heard and read enough concerns and received enough correspondence from people—including clinicians and health workers, past and present—to understand that there are real worries about the choice of clinical model, that passionate cases are being made in relation to that debate that we've heard outlined about stand-alone provision versus co-location with acute services. Doubts have been raised about various parts of the process that's been followed, about transparency at a number of junctures in the process, about elements of how the proposal has been financed, and taken together, I think these fundamental disagreements on strategy on one level and mistrust on another are damaging to the overall aspiration that, as I say, I want everybody to get behind, if at all possible. It's in that context that I really think that Government should step in to ensure that these issues are really quickly, rapidly investigated, in a way that is truly seen as independent, and that crucially, as I say, should be done without delay.

We're all touched by cancer at some point in our lives. It's in everybody's interests, wherever we are in Wales, to seek to make sure that our cancer services are the best that they can be. What I want to see here is for a project to put Velindre services on a firmer footing for the future to be accelerated, and certainly not slowed down.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

I can't possibly do justice in this debate to the many heartfelt messages in support of the Velindre proposals from all over my constituency, but I think one letter from Richard Case in Llanharan might help. Richard writes,

'As with the majority of people in south-east Wales, the Velindre Cancer Centre holds a very special place in my heart. I spent far too long in their buildings while supporting my wife undergoing a year of treatment for breast cancer', and also for the radiotherapy that Cian, his much-loved son, underwent.

'However, the amazing staff, together with the state-of-the-art technology, cured my wife and enabled Cian to have two more years with us. It doesn't sound like much, but it extended his life expectation by a third and ensured that we could enjoy the amazing memories that he left behind during that time—memories that will always be treasured by those of us he left behind.

'The current Velindre site has outgrown its current premises. It desperately requires more space and further modernisation. Whilst it is a fully functional centre with excellent results, it is not the most welcoming of sights in relation to its environment, and the access to the site in terms of transport links and the high velocity of traffic that goes through the village of Whitchurch makes the journey regularly inconvenient and stressful for the people from Ogmore who require treatment.

'Therefore, building a new centre on current land or on a brownfield location such as Whitchurch Hospital is just not practical. It would require compromising plans to try to install services onto a site that is already not fit for purpose. The site that is owned by Velindre and has been proposed for the development is ideal for the needs of the critical services it will house. I don't particularly want to see further green space developed upon where it is not necessary, but looking at the plans, it appears that every ecological consideration has been addressed, and it will actually make the remaining green space more practical and functional to the community.

'The other option mooted would be to include Velindre as part of an acute NHS site that could offer additional health services, and access to emergency services and provisions. Personally, I don't believe that this is a sensible option as a large proportion of people undergoing oncology are immunosuppressed or compromised. Having these patients potentially mixing with other patients with communicable diseases could be extremely problematic.

'We had similar issues and considerations with Cian, and in addition to the health considerations, the UHW site is also in desperate need of modernisation, has awful transport links and is lacking space. Therefore, it cannot accommodate any further services, and if it was decided to create a new acute site, that would take a significant amount of time to deliver and would no doubt raise the same if not more concerns, similar to those that are protesting the Velindre site. There is no more time. The procrastination must stop, and services be delivered.'

Presiding Officer, I could have used the words of Lindsey of Maesteg or Heather of Gilfach Goch or Jean of Sarn or those of so many others from Pencoed and Cefn Cribwr and Blaengarw and right across Ogmore who've written to me with their personal stories expressing their strong support for the Velindre proposal. But I think Richard has spoken well for all those who wrote to me, and I ask that those views be respected by all those taking part in the debate today and all who must ultimately take a decision on this project going forward. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I speak today in a debate that has generated much interest and much passion on both sides. This is evidenced by the petitions before us, which together just over 17,000 people have signed, and a large number of individuals and groups have contacted Members to make their case. However, looking at people from my constituency, the trend is very much in support of petition P-05-1018, supporting the current plans. Far more of my constituents signed this petition, rather than the alternative. In fact, nearly 12 times as many supported the current plans.

In addition, my postbag on this issue from constituents has been overwhelmingly one-sided. It doesn't surprise me, as Velindre occupies an important place in the lives and memories of far too many of my constituents. It's a place where lives are saved, where our hard-working NHS staff give their all to provide treatment and support to people battling cancer, where hope is offered. One constituent wrote about the hospital of hope and hard truths may be faced. And as we're talking about a debate that has come forward through the auspices of the Petitions Committee, it makes sense to explore their views.

Constituents who have contacted me are clear in their support for the project in its potential to improve diagnosis, treatment and outcomes, to provide a new building that is fit for purpose, and to do so within an acceptable timescale, for a specialist facility that provides cancer support for the one in two of us that will develop cancer at some point in our lives. And it does so in a convenient location that reduces pressure on people having to travel from the Valleys, such as my constituents.

I was fortunate to visit the current facility a few years ago with the MS for Islwyn and while acknowledging the hospital's excellent reputation, the need for a new facility that can meet the needs of today's patients is clear. I do have sympathy for the concerns of those who oppose the plans. Points were made that we must consider sympathetically about access, provision and the importance of the northern meadows, but I think they are more than answered by how the environment is such an important part of the future plans.

This is a point persuasively made by the authors of P-05-1018, with a desire for healing architecture that blends medical care with nature. Indeed, I am told that 60 per cent of the green space will be retained for use by both cancer patients and local residents. We need to improve outcomes for people whose lives are marked by cancer. For people in my constituency, the current plans are one such vitally needed intervention, and I am happy to support them today. Thank you.

Llywydd, last time I was speaking on a matter such as this, it was to keep the accident and emergency department open at the Royal Glamorgan Hospital. That campaign was successful. Today, I am actually speaking in support of the opening of a vitally required hospital. But can I start by expressing my support for the wonderful work that Velindre has carried out, looking after so many of my constituents over the years, and for the kindness and professionalism of the staff? And I understand there can be strong feelings on issues around location and model, but I'm speaking today solely to speak up on behalf of my constituents in the Pontypridd and Taff Ely area, but I do know these are reflected heavily across Rhondda Cynon Taf. 

I've had many representations from constituents who are patients, family members, staff and clinicians at Velindre. Every one of them has called upon me to urge support—and some of it quite emotional, as we've heard from Huw Irranca—for the new Velindre hospital and for it to go ahead as soon as possible, for an end to the interminable delay. This isn't just a project for Cardiff, but for the whole of south Wales, and it is vitally important to the well-being of my constituents. Their message to me is clear, so I put it to this Parliament on their behalf.

They tell me that delays have gone on long enough. They tell me they cannot wait for the new facility to go ahead. Llywydd, they tell me that the time for delay is over. My constituents want us to go ahead with this new hospital, for us to have the twenty-first century cancer facilities that we need and deserve, and for many of them, it is a matter of life and death. And we should seize the opportunity to go ahead now. I believe that I speak out for the overwhelming majority of my constituents. Diolch, Llywydd.

I call on the Minister to contribute to the debate, Vaughan Gething. 

Thank you, Llywydd. I'd like to thank the Petitions Committee for its work in considering these petitions and bringing them forward for debate today. Although the petitions are clearly at odds with another, I know that all of us will recognise the genuine nature of the concerns being raised, and the understandable passion that underpins them. We all want to see people affected by cancer having the best possible care and the best possible outcomes. The need for a new cancer hospital in south-east Wales to serve a broader community is widely recognised and the Government has a manifesto commitment to help deliver one. The importance of improving cancer outcomes and the need for this to include a new cancer centre are therefore not in question. What is in question is what part a new cancer hospital plays in delivering those better outcomes and where it is best located to deliver that contribution.

Velindre University NHS Trust is the statutory body responsible for the delivery of non-surgical oncology services in south-east Wales. It has led the development of proposals for a new Velindre cancer centre with its commissioning health boards. It has been a long and complex process involving an incredible amount of work from all concerned. That is now coming to final decision. The Welsh Government's role in this is to assess, through our formal scrutiny process, the strength of the case being made and to make a determination with regard to approval and funding. Ultimately, Welsh Ministers will make that decision based on the analysis and recommendations carried out by our officials and their advisers, who will have scrutinised very closely the work done by Velindre and the advice provided by Nuffield and others. That scrutiny process has now completed, and I expect to consider the advice later this week. Therefore, I cannot comment specifically on the issues raised in the petitions, as this could clearly prejudice any decisions to be made in the coming days on the business cases that are before Welsh Ministers.

What I can say is that I understand the interest in the plans and the concerns that are being raised by both petitions. I will give them due consideration when it comes to making a decision, and of course, once that decision is made, it will become public. Thank you, Llywydd.

The Chair, Janet Finch-Saunders, to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Llywydd, and thank you to all Members who have contributed to this debate, and to the Minister for his response, notwithstanding the fact he highlights he does have a prejudicial interest. I was still grateful for the information he brought forward. In concluding, though, it is a point of regret that an issue of such importance has become such a divisive issue in the local area and further afield. We all appreciate this is a very emotive issue for all, and certainly the lovely comments that have been made about the hospital in its entirety have been really heartwarming to listen to. I'm hoping that today's debate will show that at the end of the day the right decision will be made in the end, and that both sides of the argument can come together. It is clear that there are strongly held views on both sides. I know that the people who have supported both petitions, as well as the Petitions Committee itself, will await further decisions with interest. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to note the petitions. Does any Member object? I don't see or hear any objections to that. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.