The next item on the agenda this afternoon is a debate on the Public Accounts Committee report, 'Delivering for Future Generations: The story so far', and I call on the Chair of the committee to move that motion, Nick Ramsay.

Motion NDM7667 Nick Ramsay

To propose that the Senedd:

Notes the report of the Public Accounts Committee, 'Delivering for Future Generations: The story so far', which was laid in the Table Office on 17 March 2021.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you for the opportunity to speak in this debate today.

Over a year has passed since committee Chairs began discussing how the Senedd should approach its scrutiny of the statutory reports of the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales and the Auditor General for Wales, which reflect on the implementation of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. But when I compare then to now, I'm struck by how much the landscape of public services in Wales has changed, not least because we have all had to come to terms with the devastating impact of a global pandemic.

Before I speak about our key findings, I'd like to put on the record the committee's thanks to everyone who contributed to our inquiry during such challenging times. In particular, I'd like to extend special thanks to the following: officials from Aneurin Bevan University Health Board; Velindre University NHS Trust and Public Health Wales, who gave such valuable evidence to us at the height of the second wave of the pandemic; students from Coleg Gwent and INSPIRE Training Wales in Swansea, who debated and submitted to us their views at the time when face-to-face learning was impossible. I'd also like to thank the Wales Centre for Public Policy, which published its own report on the implementation of this Act, and agreed to submit it to us in summary form, of their key findings. In total, 97 organisations fed into the inquiry—a testament, we felt, to the strength of feeling about this legislation.

While very few people would object to what this Act tries to achieve, many were sceptical about whether legislation was the right way to achieve it, and it's still the case that many are sceptical about whether it does achieve it. However, scepticism is no longer good enough if we want to shape a better future for generations to come.

I should start by saying that this has been a complex inquiry. The Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 affects all public services in Wales, and different public bodies face different challenges. There might be one thing that makes it difficult for health boards to implement the Act, but that same thing might not affect local authorities. We had to take a step back and look at the bigger picture: what barriers were common to most, if not all, public services, and what fundamental problems lay behind everyone's efforts to implement the Act?

The Act is broad, holistic, and no single public body will be able to realise any of the seven well-being goals alone. Public bodies have come together to make the Act work. Many organisations and individuals have responsibilities under the Act, including the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales, who both promotes the Act and helps public bodies implement it. We wanted to find out whether the commissioner was doing her job effectively, and whether the Welsh Government itself was leading on implementing the legislation and taking public bodies on a journey that requires a significant change in mindset and culture. 

The Public Accounts Committee led this work because our remit is broad, and that enables us to consider such cross-cutting legislation that has an impact on every aspect of Welsh Government business. So, what did we find out about the first five years of the implementation of the Act? Well, we found the Welsh Government and public bodies got off to a slow start, and not all of those public bodies prioritised implementing the Act. Many public bodies told us about the impact of austerity on their capacity to fulfil their statutory duties, let alone implement aspirational legislation such as this Act. We concluded that public bodies do not need more funding to implement the Act, which is about doing things differently, and not doing extra things. However, we do believe that, by adopting the five ways of working, public bodies will meet their sustainable development duty and will have the potential to work more economically, efficiently and effectively. 

We were pleased to find the Welsh Government and other public bodies are now making progress. Government policy is now resonating more strongly with the principles of sustainable development, but there is still more to do. We also heard that, in responding to the pandemic, barriers to collaboration, integration and involvement—three of the five ways of working, as they're termed—have been broken down. We have reason to believe that this has been a catalyst for cultural change. We encourage public bodies to retain this progress as they shift their focus from the day to day to the longer term and beyond, as we begin our recovery from the pandemic. 

We directed most of our recommendations to the Welsh Government, because it is ultimately responsible for ensuring that this legislation is implemented successfully. The Welsh Government, we decided, needs to be an exemplar in its leadership, and to set the tone and direction for progressive and successful implementation of the Act. We made 14 recommendations, some of which I would like to highlight today.

The Welsh Government must ensure that all of its future policy and legislation is consistent with the Act. It must stop creating more partnership bodies and new reporting requirements spread across legislation and statutory guidance. The public sector landscape has become unnecessarily bureaucratic and confusing, which has been a major barrier to the implementation of this Act. We've recommended the Welsh Government publish guidance, setting out clearly how the key partnership bodies should work within the framework of this Act, and how bureaucracy and duplication can be reduced. 

We've also recommended that Welsh Government reconsider its approach to funding public services boards. We do not believe that public bodies should be getting additional funding. However, we do think that financial contributions to public services boards could be formalised to give clarity over what resources they have available. We acknowledge the Deputy Minister's written statement of 19 February on 'Shaping Wales' Future: Delivering National Well-being Milestones and National Well-being Indicators and a report on Wales' future'. This was issued three weeks after we scrutinised the Welsh Government in committee, and commits to taking forward some vital areas of work under this Act. These were also areas that arose in evidence, and we were pleased the Welsh Government has responded. We've recommended that the Welsh Government carries out a review of which public bodies are subject to the Act, how it can provide longer term financial security to public bodies, and better frame its remit letters for sponsored bodies around the Act.

However, it is not only the Welsh Government that must do better. We encourage the future generations commissioner and public bodies to continue to develop constructive relationships to fully utilise the work and expertise of the commissioner and her office. We also stress the importance of the commissioner prioritising support for public bodies and public services boards in delivering the legislation. And finally, to complete the audit cycle, the Auditor General for Wales should raise his expectations of public bodies and highlight, where appropriate, poor adoption of the Act. 

This has been a long, challenging but—and I think I can say this on behalf of all members of the committee—a rewarding inquiry. I look forward to hearing Members' contributions to the debate today, and I hope that the debate continues long into the future so that this important legislation remains at the forefront of public policy and ultimately delivers its intent. I look forward to Members' contributions in today's debate. 

Thank you. I don't know whether you're aware that you've allowed yourself 15 seconds to reply to the debate. [Laughter.] Fifteen seconds to reply to the debate—that will be one of the fastest replies to any debate I think we've had in this term. Jenny Rathbone. 

Thank you. I think this is a very short debate for a pretty long report and a very far-reaching piece of legislation. But, anyway, let's give it a stab. It's difficult to do justice to the breadth of it in this debate, but it's something we're certainly going to need to come back to. I think it has been absolutely path-breaking and is acknowledged internationally, and, if it didn't exist, we'd frankly have to invent it, given the extent of the challenges that now face us. I'd like to thank the clerking team and the research staff, who really did engage with this inquiry very enthusiastically and dug out the wealth of evidence that we received, orally and/or in writing, across the whole of Wales, because, obviously, all the evidence had to be taken virtually.

It clearly is a work in progress, but things like the 'Llwybr Newydd' plan that's just been published are probably the best example of the Welsh Government adopting the seven well-being goals and the five ways of working. And I really do think that that plan really has consistency and credibility because it has used the Act to really think deeply about something as complicated as completely overhauling the way we move around our country.

The NHS recovery plan also had a lot of features of the well-being of future generations Act and, frankly, if all public bodies cannot collaborate effectively, think for the long term, integrate, prevent and involve the public in the challenges we are going to be facing in the next Parliament, then we are going to really, really struggle, because we are going to have limited resources and huge challenges.

Nick's already acknowledged that the pandemic has really made us think differently about how we're doing things, but, on top of that, we have the challenge of climate change and the nature emergency hovering over us as well, and the disruption to the established trading relationship with Europe. So, we really do face challenges on multiple fronts.

So, some public bodies are further along on the journey to adopt the well-being of future generations Act than others, and some still argue that annual budgets don't allow them to plan for the long term or commit to integrated and collaborative work, but others fully acknowledge that, whilst there are changes at the edges in how budgets are allocated, the core budget for the core business of whichever body is in question is entirely predictable, and we really do have to thank the people who devised the future generations Act for really encouraging us all to think how we can do things more efficiently, how we can integrate more, how we can eliminate duplication of effort in the very, very challenging times ahead.    

It is a pleasure to contribute briefly to this debate and to pay tribute to my fellow committee members, our Chair and the clerking team for their important work on this consultation and over the past few years. It's a great surprise that this was the first time that the Senedd has scrutinised the implementation of the Act, an Act that is so important, so ambitious, but hasn't been given the necessary support since its adoption.

I do hope that this can change in the very near future, because the post-COVID recovery does provide us with an opportunity to change so many things. As the report says, it's an opportunity for policy makers to assess how we can redraw public services for the better, and also an opportunity to look at the indicators, the way we analyse success as a result of the Act; it's an opportunity to reframe the whole picture.

I understand that bodies such as ColegauCymru made this point in their evidence to us. After all, the context of how public services are provided over the next few years will be very different to what those drafting the legislation would have anticipated. The Government needs to speak to public bodies as they reconsider this, along with communicating with the public too.

This piece of legislation, as has already been stated, is one that could be innovative, and we are living in a period where radical changes can happen. The next Senedd will have an opportunity to deliver the potential of this far-reaching legislation, but, without the necessary support or leadership from Government, that opportunity will be wasted. Thanking the clerking team for all of their work once again and everyone who provided evidence to the committee, thank you.

I want to also thank the Chair and committee staff for their unprecedented work on the future generations scrutiny in a virtual landscape, and providing Wales-first best practice on access and engagement, as I have highlighted to the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association members and, of course, across the public accounts work in the Senedd. The Member for Monmouth, Nick Ramsay, has been a fine Chair of the Public Accounts Committee, and, despite clear ideological differences, he has continually sought consensus. So, I want to thank him for his professionalism and his long public service as Chair of the committee and to this Welsh Parliament.

The Public Accounts Committee has carried out sterling work, as this report shows us, but there are many challenges ahead for this Act and for the usage of public money for future generations. Indeed, the Secretary of State told the Senedd that Wales would not lose out following Brexit, so imagine my concern to read that Islwyn, which sits in the Caerphilly County Borough Council area, does not make a list of 100 priority areas earmarked for regional spending to replace EU funds, even though communities in Islwyn are some of the poorest in Europe, a fact underscored by the UN rapporteur when criticising the deepest cuts to the welfare state safety net in our history. That is unfit for future generations.

That is why this report is so important; they are our future generations. I was delighted to see that the consultation of young people included a selection of students from Coleg Gwent in Cross Keys, and I was struck by one person's comment that, 'When the coal mines were closed down, the rate of poverty increased. We lost our traditional industries. We need a strong economy.' So, I thought to myself, four decades on, there is a truth there that we still contend with—how we move from Wales's industrial famed past to the brighter future. Endemic poverty still, for many, will limit their future opportunities in life, and the future generations Act is a Wales-first, bold testimony of what this Senedd Cymru Welsh Parliament can achieve, working together. It was visionary when introduced by our late friend Carl Sargeant, and the work of ensuring that we give life to its meaning goes on.

And to conclude, as the report before us states, it is the work of this Senedd and its Members to ensure that the future generations Act is at the heart of all Government and Welsh Parliament work and thinking. Recommendation 13 places before this Senedd and its Business Committee a challenge, and, if the Deputy Llywydd will indulge me, it states how can we

'ensure that the Senedd’s Committee structure facilitates effective scrutiny of legislation such as the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and other matters that cross policy areas and Ministerial portfolios.'

So, let it be a key challenge that the Members of the sixth Senedd in Wales rise to, for our future generations need this as we embark on the journey into a post-pandemic and post-Brexit world. Diolch.

Thank you. Can I now call on the Deputy Minister and Chief Whip, Jane Hutt?

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'd like to start by thanking the Chair and the committee for leading the inquiry into the implantation of the well-being of future generations Act, and what more can be done to make it a success. I think the approach taken shows that the legislation can't be considered just by one committee, nor is it the responsibility of one Welsh Government Minister; it is our collective responsibility and duty to promote and carry out sustainable development in all we do. And the way in which you have conducted the inquiry with engagement from so many organisations, as the Chair has said, who wanted to share their evidence, and also the work with young people reflecting the spirit of the Act. And the publication of the report, alongside the reports from the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales and the Auditor General for Wales, provide a useful steer on the actions that we and others need to take to accelerate the implementation of the Act.

It's been five years since the main duties in the Act were commenced, although this is a short period in the context of future generations. It's nevertheless been a period of significant change, and that's been reflected on by Members in this debate. We've faced further austerity, we've left the European Union, we've felt the impacts of climate change and, over the last year, every aspect of our lives has been changed by the coronavirus. Any one of these challenges could have been enough to slow the progress of any Government, but despite all of these challenges, we've delivered on the promises we made to the people of Wales five years ago.

In recent months, alongside the pandemic and responding to that, and doing that in the spirit of the Act, we've also seen a growing application of the well-being of future generations approach in how Government is shaping Wales's future: the Minister for economy and transport publishing the economic resilience and reconstruction mission last month, which now for the first time means a well-being economy becomes the fundamental purpose of the Government's economic development activity; the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs publishing 'Beyond Recycling', a long-term strategy to 2050 to make the circular economy in Wales a reality, developed with the well-being of future generations Act at its heart; the Deputy Minister for Housing and Local Government publishing the draft social partnership and procurement Bill, a live example of how we're ensuring that as legislation comes forward, it works with and complements the well-being of future generations Act in its well-being duty; and last week, the Minister for Education announcing how the Welsh Government is investing in our future generations by launching an international learning exchange programme for Wales, and this is a down payment on our young people's futures, offering opportunities to all from all backgrounds; and only yesterday, my statement publishing the race equality action plan, a collaborative effort, and we're grateful for so many organisations and people across Wales who been involved in co-creating it, and helping us to achieve a more equal Wales.

The recommendations and conclusions in the report of the committee will need careful consideration, and it will be for the next Government to reflect and respond fully in the autumn, but it's good that we've been able to have this debate to acknowledge it, receive it and reflect on it today. Earlier this year, I established the well-being of future generations national stakeholder forum, and this brings together public, private and third sector representatives to consider emerging work, and support and advise on the next phase of the national implementation of the Act and the sustainable development goals in Wales. The well-being of future generations Act with its seven well-being goals provides a long-term vision of Wales agreed by the Senedd back in 2015. It puts us on a strong footing to guide us in these uncharted waters. And thinking about the long term, involving young people, all people of all generations, joining up policies and delivery of services, collaborating across all sectors, and focusing on prevention is crucial in working more sustainably. What helps set Wales apart is the work of the independent future generations commissioner, and how the efforts to secure a sustainable path for Wales are supported across the whole of the Welsh Government. I would say, Dirprwy Lywydd, because of the Act, Wales is different. We make decisions for people, for the planet, for now and for the future. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. I have no Members who wish to have an intervention, therefore I'll call on Nick Ramsay to reply to the debate, and I will be generous and give you slightly more than 15 seconds.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm really missing that digital clock in the Chamber. Maybe I need to get a mini one on the screen here.

Can I thank all the Members who've contributed to today's debate, and also the Minister for her excellent comments there? As I said in opening, it's really important that this Act continues to be scrutinised in the next Senedd. As Delyth Jewell said, we started that process of scrutiny in this inquiry, the first time it had been looked at properly.

This Act quite simply has the chance to change the whole way that Government works and that public services operate in Wales. It has great potential so long as the recommendations of our inquiry are implemented and monitored in the next Senedd. Put simply, the complexities need to be taken away, the Act needs to be streamlined, we need a refocusing of what is in principle a very effective, a very good piece of legislation, but which in practice has been less effective than it might have been because of some of the issues surrounding its implementation.

Can I thank all the Members who took part in this inquiry? Can I also thank the members of the committee during my time chairing it over the last five years? I should also give thanks to Llyr Gruffydd as well, and the other Chairs who took part, once it was decided that the public accounts inquiry was the best vehicle for looking at and scrutinising this Act. It is cross-cutting, and that's something that needs to be looked at and monitored in future, to make sure that it isn't simply an add-on, but is something that is mainstreamed through all policies.

Finally, Dirprwy Lywydd, a huge thank you to my clerks for their support over the last five years, and also to the staff of Audit Wales, who've provided great support to the committee as well. I'm sure the Public Accounts Committee in the sixth Senedd will continue the valuable work that we have been implementing in the fifth. I look forward to reading future reports of the committee, and I wish all my fellow members of the committee well in the future. Diolch.

Thank you. The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No, I don't see any objections. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.