Item 20 on our agenda this afternoon is a debate on the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee report, 'Exploring the devolution of broadcasting: How can Wales get the media it needs?' I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion, Bethan Sayed.

Motion NDM7666 Bethan Sayed

To propose that the Senedd:

Notes the report of the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee, ‘Exploring the devolution of broadcasting: How can Wales get the media it needs?’, laid in the Table Office on 11 March 2021.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and as part of my last contribution I'd like to say best of luck to you for whatever you do in the future. It's been a pleasure to work with you as Deputy Presiding Officer and a Member of this Senedd.

It's my great pleasure to open the debate today on our report, which looks at the devolution of broadcasting and how Wales can have the media it needs. Before I start, I must note that this will be last contribution as Chair of this committee. I've already put on record my thanks to all of the people and the staff who've contributed to the committee over the years, but I'd like to thank you all again for all your work. I'd like to put that on the record again today.

Turning to the report, we should consider this report as the culmination of five years of work that the committee has undertaken in this area. The report is one that builds on previous reports, as well as the regular scrutiny work that we have undertaken with the BBC, S4C, Ofcom and others. Clearly, the committee reflects the political balance of the main parties in the Senedd, however, on this important question, the committee's view was not, 'Should broadcasting be devolved?' but, 'How much broadcasting should be devolved?' This is a significant change from where we were before this specific committee existed, and before we had any kind of scrutiny of the media here in Wales.

During the inquiry, we heard that the content available to Wales in the media was inadequate. This was the starting point for recommendation 1, which calls for more broadcasting responsibilities for Wales, and which challenges the Welsh Government, Westminster and Ofcom to identify how it would be possible to improve the content provided in the media for audiences in Wales. 

These shortcomings also extend to news and current affairs content, and we heard widespread dissatisfaction regarding the content that is available to Welsh audiences. We all agree about the vital role that this content plays in a functioning democracy. As a result of this conclusion, we are calling on the Welsh Government to establish an ongoing central fund to support news journalism that is accountable and that is provided on an arm's-length basis. And I was very pleased to receive correspondence yesterday from the Deputy Minister for the Economy and Transport, Lee Waters, confirming that the Government will accept this recommendation in principle, with more details to follow.

In terms of the devolution of S4C and public service Welsh language broadcasting, we heard that the last decade has seen a decrease in income of 37 per cent for the channel since 2010. Perhaps more importantly, the committee concluded that it was an anomaly for powers over S4C to rest in the hands of Ministers in London, rather than Ministers in the country where the language that is heard on S4C is actually spoken. Therefore, recommendation 4 calls on the UK Government to devolve to Wales powers over S4C and other issues relating to public service broadcasting in the Welsh language.

I think it's important for me to note here that some of us in the committee would have gone further, of course, to devolve more than just S4C and matters relating to the Welsh language, but I think that we have come a long way in terms of gaining cross-party support for this important issue, and that's why the report is so important. 

Just turning to competition from streaming companies, turning to wider trends in terms of the broadcasting landscape, it's clear we are living through an era of huge structural change. The once-dominant position of our public service broadcasters, BBC and ITV, are under threat by competition from subscription video on demand providers such as the Netflixes and the Amazons of the world. Our report considered the funding and regulatory models for our public service broadcasters in detail. While it is not possible to cover these in the limited time I have available here today, I wanted to highlight our recommendation 7 which looks at the relationship between PSBs and the online streaming platforms.

The asymmetric nature of the competition, coupled with issues such as the diminishing value of the prominence given to PSBs in the programming guide, have lead us to conclude global streaming services should be regulated to strengthen the public service media ecosystem. And in our recommendation 7, we call on the UK Government to consider levies on global streaming giants to fund public service content, or requirements to carry more public service content.

In closing, it's clear that change is coming to the media landscape and in many ways this change is inevitable. However, what is not inevitable is how that process of change is managed. We have the opportunity to ensure that we manage this change in a way that reflects Wales’s specific needs and the interests of our nation as a modern, bilingual nation. This report sets out some firm proposals on how we can ensure that we get the media we need and deserve through a package of proposals. Without action, we run the risk that situations will continue to deteriorate here in Wales for audiences across Wales, and we do not deserve that. 

For the time being, today’s debate also marks the end of an important chapter in the story of this Senedd. This committee has regularly highlighted issues relating to broadcasting and communications to our wider Members of the Senedd. It is my hope and expectation that this committee will continue in the sixth Senedd, and most importantly that there is accountability when measuring progress, especially in the communications area where, as we know, many of those elements are not devolved.

So, thank you from me for the time being. I'm looking forward to Members' contributions this afternoon, and I'd like to commend this historic report today to the Senedd. Thank you very much. 

I would like to start my contribution by thanking Bethan for her outstanding leadership as Chair of the committee. You've led the committee with energy, edge and commitment, and it's obvious to see in the outstanding reports the committee has produced. I also want to put on record my gratitude to Helen Mary Jones, who helped so ably during the time of your maternity leave.

I just want to make two points. The first, really, goes back to the 1830s and Alexis de Tocqueville's incredible work, which observed the operation of American democracy. He said that a free, vigorous press was absolutely essential for a democratic culture to thrive, and I think that insight remains as true today as it did in the early nineteenth century. We therefore need good-quality news journalism in Wales, and we need more local news journalism. I commend the efforts of the BBC in this respect, but we need more of it. It is no surprise that during the period of COVID, one of the great developments has been that many people have started to realise the extent of the Welsh Government's powers over public health and health more broadly. That's just an indicator of the gap we've had, really, in the coverage of Welsh politics, and this really does not do our citizens a service. Broadcasting, the main vehicle these days, whereas it was newspapers previously in the nineteenth century, is a key to keeping our democracy healthy.

The second point I make as a member of the committee rather than my party's spokesperson on broadcasting. I've always thought the position of S4C and Welsh language broadcasting was anomalous. There are not many countries in the world that have embedded national languages that are not the majority language that have decentralised systems of government but then retain the minority language broadcasting function at the state level. They all devolve it, because that's where the decisions are best made. People are held accountable, but also it fits into wider language policy, well beyond broadcasting. So, I really think it is time that we looked at this and pressed for S4C and Welsh language broadcasting in general to be devolved. I do say of my own party—I know, because I was involved in some of the discussion—that the party has been very interested in this previously, and certainly Conservative Governments have explored the possibility of devolving S4C, with an intention that that was the best option. I can't speak for previous Governments under Labour at the UK level, but I suspect they looked at it as well. So, I do think it is time for us to deliver that, or at least request it, and then deliver that sort of service, because it is in the Senedd and the Welsh Government that we will give the attention and time we really need to see Welsh language broadcasting flourish. We could be as successful as smaller nations around Europe in terms of our creative output, as well as improving the quality of news journalism.

I want to finish, Deputy Presiding Officer, by paying you a tribute. For 22 years, you have served loyally your party as a most able advocate and most generous one, but also very sprightly when you needed to engage in the rougher end of political dialogue—but always with great generosity and humour. You've brought that generosity and humour, and authority, may I say, to your role as Deputy Presiding Officer, and we will all look back with great pleasure and gratitude on your service in this Senedd. Thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. I can hardly tell you off for going over time for that most generous tribute, so thank you very much. I'll say nothing about the fact that you did go over time. Siân Gwenllian.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. It's more important than ever to secure the devolution of broadcasting to Wales, not only for the benefit of our democracy, but, as the pandemic has demonstrated, for the benefit of our public health too. Plaid Cymru therefore welcomes this report enthusiastically. For the first time in the history of Welsh politics, we have a cross-party consensus in favour of the devolution of at least some elements of broadcasting to Wales. We must pay particular tribute to Bethan Sayed, as the committee Chair, for her leadership on this specific issue. You've been pushing hard for this over the past five years, I know. Thank you, Bethan, for your passion, and thank you for your perseverance in so many areas, and particularly for your role in laying firm foundations for this committee as an integral part of our national Parliament for the future. 

Plaid Cymru has argued for some time that powers over broadcasting in Wales should be in the hands of the Senedd rather than in the hands of the Westminster establishment that knows virtually nothing, and cares less about our communities. And to be entirely clear, a Plaid Cymru-led Government would commit to seek to ensure the powers for broadcasting are devolved to Wales. Will other parties also commit to do the same? Well, we will see quite soon. The devolution of broadcasting would help people living in Wales to better understand what's happening within their own nation without having to receive misinformation from the Westminster-based media, who simply can't understand devolution, as we have seen far too often over the period of the pandemic, unfortunately. It would also provide a much-needed opportunity for us to build diverse Welsh media, which would reflect the needs and interests of contemporary Wales as a maturing democracy.

In turning now to S4C, is there any other nation in the world that provides the powers over its main channel and public broadcaster to another nation? It was good to hear David Melding explaining that that simply isn't the case in other nations. S4C operates in accordance with a remit decided by the UK Government, which has a statutory duty to ensure that S4C is sufficiently funded. As the committee said, that situation is a very unusual situation—that powers for S4C are held in London rather than in our own nation. The establishment of S4C back in 1982 was a huge boost for our nation, for our identity and our culture. As it happens, I was fortunate to be involved with that campaign back in the 1980s. There's far more that needs to be done, and there's a great deal of work to build on the successes of S4C. But we must acknowledge that the political climate is very unstable, and we need to be very mindful of the interests of the channel. 

According to the report, the sixth Senedd should include a committee that discuses media policy as a central part of its remit. And I would have thought that, ultimately, we need far more than a committee; we need an independent body, independent of Government, in order to have that debate on the media in Wales. It's a discussion, of course, for the next Senedd now—

The Member does need to wind up, please. 

I've just finished. I was just going to say, Ann, I wish you all the very best in the future, and thank you very much for your contribution to the Senedd over so many years. It's been invaluable. 

May I also take this opportunity to wish the Deputy Minister, Dafydd Elis-Thomas, well on his retirement? I'd like to thank him sincerely for his important contribution as our democracy has taken root and prospered. Thank you. 

I would like to thank the culture committee for today's debate, and for their efforts over the past five years under the chairmanship of Bethan Sayed. I'm sure she's been a very good Chair. Unfortunately, I have to say I disagree with the report that they've produced. I think that the report, although well intentioned, is based on a false premise. After all, who decides what media Wales needs? This is a value judgement before we even start. Why would I assume that Wales does not already have the media that it needs? If it needed something else, then there would be a commercial market for it, which some broadcaster would already have exploited. So, Wales has got precisely the media that the people of Wales actually want. If you give the Welsh people something else by Senedd diktat, then you will be giving them something that the Senedd wants them to have, not something that the people of Wales actually want.

We already have too much political interference with tv in Wales, if I can focus on tv for a moment, and this report is proposing even more. The BBC is a biased operation, which favoured 'remain' over 'leave', which favours the left over the right, and, in Wales, has a disturbing tendency to be stuffed full of Welsh nationalists. Just the other day, who was appointed head of content at BBC Wales? Rhuanedd Richards, former chief executive of Plaid Cymru. BBC Wales are desperately trying to ignore my party, Abolish the Assembly, by leaving us out of the leaders' debates in this election, even though we are polling far higher than the Lib Dems, who they are proposing to put in ahead of us. This is a measure of the shadowy networking between BBC Wales, the political left and Welsh nationalism, which has been strangling the life out of civic society in Wales for the past 20 years. We actually need less political meddling in the media, not more.

The report also says we should have a Welsh-focused news programme. What that might mean in reality? If we have a Welsh-focused News at Six, what is the point of that when we already have Wales Today? How would it work? On Wales's News at Six we would have Lucy Owen talking to Nick Servini standing outside the Houses of Parliament talking about how the day's events affected Wales. Then, on Wales Today we would have Jen Jones talking to Teleri or Ione and they would be really scratching for material. We would end up with lead stories about a sheep falling down a hillside in Criccieth. Or we would zoom to a live broadcast of an exciting meeting of the constitutional affairs committee here at the Senedd, with an even more exciting interview with Mick Antoniw afterwards. All riveting stuff to look forward to, if the culture committee gets its way. 

This is where the report really falls down, because politicians are trying to judge what comprises good tv. Apparently, more programmes made in Wales have to be set in Wales. Why? I would have to ask, what right have the committee members to tell us what the viewing public needs? If we needed it, we would already have it. With all due respect, this report is complete nonsense and Abolish will be voting against. But I thank the committee for its efforts in all sincerity, although I disagree.

I also thank the Dirprwy Lywydd, Dafydd Elis-Thomas and Jane Hutt—who may be back, of course—but, if I don't see any of you, thank you very much for your assistance during my time in the Senedd. Diolch yn fawr iawn and hwyl fawr. 

Thank you. Can I now call the Deputy Minister for Culture, Sport and Tourism, Dafydd Elis-Thomas?  

Thank you very much, Ann, and thank you for the privilege of having you presiding on the final day in this place. Our friendship and our relationship in north Wales, and a lot of political collaboration that we won't mention today, goes back over decades. You have been a shining star among us, and particularly as you have presided over us. 

I welcome the committee's report and I'm very grateful for it. We have seen the importance of public service broadcasting during this crisis and we are still working through the crisis, of course. And we have seen how important it is to have devolved and local media that can report on public health crises to the population affected by those. It's important that we don't forget that contribution and that we build upon what has happened this time. 

I'm also grateful to the media for their effective partnership with the Welsh Government on the creative industries, because that is crucial to us—that the creative work undertaken can happen in close relationship with the media. And that's what concerns me slightly about this motion and on the talk of broadcasting. I've ceased using the word 'broadcasting'. I haven't done so for years, because of the late great Euryn Ogwen, who taught me many things. He was the first to teach me the importance of the word 'digital'. I didn't know what it meant until Euryn gave me a brief lecture. And since that point, I have sought to look at all sorts of cultural signals across various platforms and to see them as digital forms, which is a new culture for us all to be a part of. So, I don't think there is any meaning in talking about the devolution of broadcasting, but we can talk about ensuring that the whole digital and communications environment can provide a space for Wales. And that is now easier, of course, in the digital context, as the old major state broadcasters—although we have international broadcasters that are worse, perhaps, than the state broadcasters—can't always reach people digitally on all occasions.

Now, we have done many things during this time to seek to ensure that there is a stronger voice for Wales at the UK level. We have a memorandum of understanding with Ofcom and as regards Welsh appointments. But the most important thing that's happened, of course, is the revolutionary announcement made by the BBC last week on the six-year plan to redraw the BBC as a truly devolved institution that reflects the end of the United Kingdom as we know it—that's what is happening, and the BBC is willing to lead the way in that. This public commitment is one that should be welcomed. Therefore, I look forward to seeing more and more devolution of broadcasting and digital and for the next Welsh Government to contribute even more than we have succeeded in doing in recent years in influencing on behalf of the people of Wales in terms of the media that they see and view. Thank you.

Thank you. I have no Members who've indicated that they wish to make an intervention. Therefore, I call on Bethan Sayed to reply to the debate. Bethan.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you to everyone, I think, who has responded to this discussion today.

Thank you to David Melding for your contribution on the committee. It's been a pleasure to work with you. It's been a pleasure to work with everybody actually, because it's given us a chance to discuss this important issue in a consensual way and in a way where we can try and get to a point where we didn't have to produce minority reports or we didn't have to try and make this a divisive issue, which it could easily have become. So, I appreciate how you've approached this work and, definitely, I would agree that an anomaly is that decisions over S4C—our national Welsh language broadcaster—are made in another place. Those should definitely be made here in Wales. And, yes, while COVID has shown that we have had more coverage in the press, as Siân Gwenllian has said, it's still patchy and there's still a long way to go. But thank you again for all your hard work and for recognising the fact that we need more local news. I would say to those MSs who don't feel that we need more local news here in Wales, well, it's to scrutinise us so that we can become more accountable to the people of Wales and so that we then can make sure that the decisions we are making are effective and ones that we take with all seriousness. 

Thank you very much, Siân Gwenllian, for your work on this committee as well. You were a member of the committee and a very hard-working member as well, and I am very pleased that you had an opportunity to work with me on this committee. Powers over devolving broadcasting—would the other parties support this in their manifestos? Well, of course, we'll have to see what happens in the next month, but certainly I've heard what Plaid Cymru is going to do.

In terms of S4C, you say the same thing as David Melding—that we need to have the powers in our own country, and you mentioned an independent body that could act after the next Senedd, if Plaid Cymru was in power. Of course, that's to be seen, if the election is successful for Plaid Cymru, but thank you for your contribution.

I'm struggling really to know what to say about Gareth Bennett's contribution. We had lots of evidence sessions from people with particular interests in the media. We had people who were academics, people who work in the sector. This is not just a wish list from the Senedd committee. This is based on real evidence—hard graft, day in, day out. Trade unions have also asked us to look at this issue because they said that they want to talk about devolution of broadcasting but they find it difficult, with their bosses in London, to be able to raise these issues. There are real concerns around people having to go to London on trains and buses for interviews to take part in things like Casualty that are filmed here in Wales. You know, we need more news about our local economy, because local newspapers have closed over the years, and places like Port Talbot have been left poorer for it. We need more news so that people like you can be scrutinised in the decisions that you make, so that Abolish the Welsh Assembly Party hopefully doesn't win any MSs in the next Senedd term. So, that's why I say that our committee is important. You may think that it's nonsense, but I put a lot of damn hard work into this, so what I do is not nonsense and I would like for you to know that at the end of this Senedd term. Do not speak about people who have put lots of work into this as doing nonsense. I am proud of my work and the work of the other cross-party group Members on this committee, and more fool you for judging it in this way at the end of this term.

I thank the Minister Dafydd Elis-Thomas for his contribution. I thank you for outlining the fact that things have changed in terms of the Welsh Government and your thinking in this area, and, as I said at the outset, Lee Waters wrote to us as a committee yesterday, saying that they would support what we're asking for in principle in terms of creating that fund for journalism here in Wales to ensure that there is growth.

Certainly we're not asking for anything that's going to be influenced by the Welsh Government; everything needs to be on an arm's-length basis, but I think it is important that the Welsh Government does this work, even though elements of broadcasting are not devolved. Certainly there is momentum, and there is momentum for change. There is an MOU between the BBC, Ofcom and ITV here in Wales. They are willing to come to the committee to contribute and discuss issues with us. And I'd like to finish by thanking them for joining us, and I hope that there will be another committee like this in the next Senedd. This committee has had Lord Hall and Tim Davie in to give evidence, and it has held them to account for what they're doing here in Wales.

At the end of the day, our democracy is relatively new, but it is important that we are held to account and that the people of Wales have the press that they deserve and that they can read about their everyday lives in that press. We have to act, and that's why I'm so pleased to present this report to you today. Thank you very much.

Thank you. The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? Do I see an objection? [Objection.] Yes, I do. Sorry, I have to keep looking around the gallery of faces. Okay, so we see an objection, therefore we'll defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.