The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Darren Millar, and amendment 2 in the name of Lesley Griffiths. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected.

The next item is a Plaid Cymru debate on the Senedd's powers, and I call on Rhys ab Owen to move the motion.

Motion NDM7701 Siân Gwenllian

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Agrees that this sixth Senedd has a mandate for the devolution of significant further powers from Westminster to Wales.

2. Believes that the Senedd must have the levers to improve the lives of our citizens and to rebuild as a greener, fairer and more prosperous Wales after the COVID-19 pandemic.

3. Recognises the threat posed to the Senedd’s powers by the UK Government’s attitude to devolution, especially since Brexit.

4. Calls on the Welsh Government to initiate the process outlined in the Government of Wales Act 2006 to seek powers to the Senedd over matters currently reserved to Westminster, including policing and justice, rail, welfare, broadcasting, energy projects, the Crown Estate, the Gender Recognition Act 2004 and the power for the Senedd to call a binding referendum on Wales’s constitutional future.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Last month's Senedd elections gave a clear and powerful mandate for the devolution of substantial further powers to this place, to Cardiff.

It's fair to say that Wales is at a crossroads in our development as a political nation. Little did I think as a schoolboy watching the first proceedings of the National Assembly for Wales in 1999 that I would be standing here as a Member of the Senedd, a powerhouse Parliament with primary legislative and tax-raising powers. It has been a remarkable journey—or a process, as some have termed it. Despite Boris Johnson calling devolution a mistake, despite some over there on the Conservative benches flirting with the Abolish lot, this has been roundly rejected by the people of Wales in the ballot boxes. They have given us a strong endorsement for further powers. However, as the people of Wales have given us that unequivocal support, that's not good enough for the Conservatives, that's not good enough for the Westminster Government: they continue to undermine our very existence. Only over the weekend, we heard Boris Johnson instructing civil servants in Whitehall not to refer to Wales as a nation. Well, let me tell you: we are a nation, and we are here to stay. Your weak attempts to bolster the union will not work.

The Welsh Government was elected on a manifesto pledge to fight for radical constitutional change. Well, may I say there is nothing radical in your amendment today? One could easily believe that we'd gone back in time to the beginning of the fifth Senedd, as we look at your amendment.

During the election campaign, the First Minister said this:

'We need home rule for Wales, more powers, a position where devolution cannot be pulled back by a whim of a prime minister.'

Well, First Minister, well, Counsel General, today you have an opportunity to underpin those words with a proper plan based in statute. Now is the time to act, to deliver on the mandate of the people of Wales, to trigger the provision in the Government of Wales Act 2006 to seek further powers. Now is the time to turn the rhetoric of home rule into reality and deliver the stronger Wales and the stronger Senedd that the people of Wales are crying out for.

As we slowly make our way to a post-COVID future, it's important that we take this opportunity to build a better Wales. We can't go back to how things were in the past. From the ruins of the second world war, a Labour Government showed the way—they transformed Britain for the better. We today in Wales must think radically once again, but this time, that will happen in Wales, not in Britain.

The coronavirus pandemic has shown that, when Wales takes the lead in public health matters, it is usually far more effective than following Westminster's lead. The Welsh Government, you are rightly proud of your vaccine programme, but now we need to create a justice system that we can equally be proud of. We need to create a welfare system that protects the most vulnerable in our society. We need to create a social care that looks after our elderly and gives them the respect they deserve.

We must make legislation that is closely aligned to health and education and welfare services.

Should we really leave all these important matters to a party that wishes to slash the international aid budget? Really? Is that what we're asking the Welsh people to accept?

After over 20 years of devolution it makes no sense, does it, that justice is not devolved to this Senedd? If it's good enough for Scotland, if it's good enough for Northern Ireland, why isn't good enough for us here in Wales? Why don't we in this Senedd take responsibility for justice? But even if we put to one side that strange anomaly, that we have a legislature but we can't enact our laws, just imagine how much better our justice system could be here in Wales: justice would be better for victims, for offenders and for our communities. A better system is possible, but more than that, a better system is essential for the people of Wales.

Proper rehabilitation, an effective and compassionate victim charter and preventative work to sweep aside the root causes of crime. That's what our communities need. Sadly, all these principled aspirations will remain beyond our control until we have the means to make Welsh justice here in Wales. The Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill, currently taking its legislative journey through Westminster, is a perfect example of why we need to devolve justice here in Wales. The Bill's raft of significant changes, including new powers to restrict protest and expand stop and search, are certain to exasperate already inequalities within our criminal justice system. We all know that the Bill's stop-and-search measures will disproportionately impact black people.

There have been so many positive changes in our country as a result of protest, from the daughters of Rebecca to the Chartists, to Cymdeithas yr Iaith and, more recently, Black Lives Matter and Extinction Rebellion. There is a supermajority in our Senedd in favour of enhanced powers. This is the perfect opportunity for us to support that, to support the motion, so that the Senedd and the nation can stand shoulder to shoulder and demonstrate clearly to the Westminster Government what the will of the Welsh public is.

And I hope, as I watched the Senedd over 20 years ago, that there's a young person watching our debate today, and that that young person will one day become a Member of this place, but a Member of a Parliament that administers justice; a Parliament that has the powers to fight for all the people of Wales; a Parliament no longer reliant on the vagaries of the Westminster Government, and for me and my party, a Parliament that is wholly independent for our nation.

Our motion today focuses on the powers that we should be seeking, and doing so immediately; powers that there's broad support for and a consensus already available in this Chamber. We don't need another commission to discuss these, the support is already here. But more than that, we must also seek powers for the people of Wales to make decisions for themselves. Not the conversation that the Labour Party refers to in its amendment, but a real debate. We need to empower the people of Wales to decide their own future, and it shouldn't be reliant on Westminster as to what our future in Wales should be. We must have these powers, particularly if Westminster refuses our clear demand for self-government. Thank you.

I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on Darren Millar to move amendment 1, tabled in his name. 

Amendment 1—Darren Millar

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To propose that the Senedd:

1. Believes that the outcome of the recent Senedd election demonstrates that there is no mandate for significant constitutional change or a further referendum on devolved powers.

2. Notes the cooperation between Her Majesty's Government and Welsh Government on common frameworks following the UK's departure from the European Union.

3. Welcomes the collaboration between Her Majesty's Government and the Welsh Government during the coronavirus pandemic including on:

a) the provision of funding to protect businesses, incomes, jobs, public services, the third sector, the arts and more;

b) deployment of the military;

c) vaccine procurement and delivery.

4. Believes that the future of Wales is best served as part of a strong United Kingdom.

Amendment 1 moved.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I move the Welsh Conservative amendment and speak against the motion and the Government's amendment 2.

Can I first of all welcome the new Plaid Cymru spokesperson to his position and congratulate him on his appointment? I have to say that leading a debate for the first time in the Siambr can be a very nerve-wracking experience, but if he had any nerves he certainly didn't show them today. I can remember the very first debate that I led in this place: the fire alarm actually went off and the whole place was evacuated halfway through. I don't know whether that was as a result of the heat that I was generating in the Chamber, or whether someone was causing a bit of mischief outside, but it did make it all the more memorable. I look forward generally to jousting with you across the Chamber for many years to come.

Dirprwy Lywydd, Plaid Cymru had the opportunity to use their first opposition debate in the Senedd to look at a whole range of issues that are of critical importance to the people of Wales, but instead of choosing to focus on those other important issues like our health service, our schools, our economy, they have decided instead to start the new parliamentary term with a proposal that was overwhelmingly rejected at the recent Senedd elections, an election in which Plaid Cymru put to the people of Wales a pitch for more powers and another referendum with more constitutional chaos, and yet a referendum in which their share of the vote, unlike our share of the vote, went down. They went backwards. They lost ground. They didn't gain any ground as a result of that particular message that they put forward to the people of Wales, and that's because constitutional navel-gazing and constitutional chaos were rejected by the people of Wales on 6 May. And because of that, we must take this opportunity this afternoon in this Chamber to also reject this sort of power play as well.

That's why we make it absolutely clear in our amendment that we believe that there is no mandate whatsoever for the further devolution of significant powers to this Senedd. In contrast to the Plaid spokesperson, we believe that the pandemic and Brexit demonstrate very clearly why we don't need those extra powers because, Dirprwy Lywydd, the greatest tool that we have to rebuild a better Wales is the fact that Wales is an integral part of the United Kingdom. We only need to look at the past 18 months during the pandemic to see how Wales benefits from the current devolution settlement. We've had UK armed forced personnel that have been administering vaccines, that have driven ambulances across the length and breadth of Wales, when the NHS needed that extra support and faced that pressure. They've also flown in personal protective equipment from places such as the far east into the United Kingdom, when our NHS was on its knees and needed that support the most.

The UK Government's procurement processes and investment into the COVID vaccine research are responsible for one of the best vaccination programmes in the world. Without that support, Wales would not be the global leader in terms of vaccine roll-out that it is today. Our roll-out, in fact, would be lagging behind, risking lives and risking our economic recovery. It's thanks to being part of the UK that Wales has had the firepower to protect lives and livelihoods throughout the pandemic with the furlough scheme, the self-employed income support scheme, bounce-back loans, the cash to deliver the economic resilience fund here in Wales, and funding to support the third sector, the arts and our cultural sector. And on top of this, the UK Government has also, of course, invested extra money into our welfare system to increase payments to the people that need it.

Plaid's motion, of course, also asserts that the UK Government poses a threat to devolution, but nothing could be further from the truth. I would remind Members in this Senedd today that it was a Conservative UK Government that delivered the referendum back in 2016 that resulted in a further transfer of powers to the Senedd, because unlike other parties in this Chamber that tried to block Brexit, we actually respect the results of referendums. We know that it's the settled will of the people of Wales to have a Parliament here that has the set of powers that we currently have. There was no power grab by the UK Government following our departure from the European Union either. In fact, Wales has received scores of new powers and responsibilities as a result of our departure from the EU. The United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 actually cemented powers and gave responsibilities to the Senedd in around 70 policy areas, which came to us directly from Brussels. I mean, how you can say that that's a power grab, I will never ever know.

So, instead of balking about the powers that we don't have, let's use the powers that we do have to improve the lives of the people of Wales, to sort out the problems in our health service, in our schools, and in our economy, so that Wales can be the prosperous nation that we all need it to be.

I call on the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution to move formally amendment 2, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Amendment 2—Lesley Griffiths

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To propose that the Senedd:

1. Supports the Welsh Government in its continuing work to secure the devolution of policing and justice as recommended by the Commission on Justice in Wales.

2. Welcomes the Welsh Government commitment to establish a commission and a conversation with the people of Wales to consider our constitutional future.

3. Notes the Welsh Government’s plans to publish a refreshed version of ‘Reforming our Union’, which was first published in 2019.

Amendment 2 moved.

I move it formally.

I'm going to take the temperature down a little bit. Three of the four political parties represented in this Senedd now broadly accept that the United Kingdom is not currently fit for purpose in respect of its UK-wide governance and its constitutional arrangements, and its relationships between democratic institutions. And in the previous Senedd, there was indeed at least one notable and distinguished Member of the Conservative benches, too, who accepted this and argued the case for reform to preserve the union. We wait to see if there are any Welsh Conservatives willing to pick up the mantle of David Melding in his cool and considered and astute analysis of the failings of the union and the dangers to the union of proceeding as we are, because the status quo is not an option. It is like running an old car until it falls to bits, without any maintenance, let alone upgrades. Ultimately, it rusts, it seizes and it falls apart. You either need to take proper care of that old jalopy or you scrap it and get something new.

Now, where three of the four parties represented here agree in their concerns, as reflected in the motions and amendments, their prognoses are quite different, from prophesying the end of the union to arguing for radical reform, hence the range of amendments to the main motion. I would say that the case for radical and urgent reform is simply now unarguable. This is not a political point; it is a pragmatic point. The current UK constitution, built around the traditional model of Westminster parliamentary sovereignty, is simply outmoded and inappropriate for today. It does not reflect the modern identity and the aspirations of the four nations, let alone the welcome re-emergence of the strong metropolitan and regional mayoralties in England.

So, what should a reformed union look like? Well, it must reflect the reality that this is a voluntary union of nations and regions, working together for mutual benefit, not an overcentralised system with a clear power imbalance. As a voluntary association of nations, it must also be ultimately open to any of its constituent parts, democratically, to choose to withdraw and walk away from the union, not to be simply bound to it forever, come hell or high water. And as a voluntary union, there should not only be respect between the constituent parts, but that respect should be reflected in the way in which the parts of the union collaborate and contest ideas and policies and visions for the whole of that union; where the constituent parts have an equal say in what the centre does and what it does not do; where the centre does not dictate, but it listens and it responds, and where the sum is greater than the parts because the nations and the regions feel, and indeed do have, a meaningful role in that union.

Now, Welsh Labour, my party, campaigned on reform, and this Government has been elected with a mandate to develop the thinking around this, and with the wider Welsh public, on something that looks like, whatever we may call it, a form of far-reaching federalism within a new and successful union—I think the last person to use that phrase in here was David Melding—for a national civic conversation in Wales about our future; for the establishment of an independent standing commission to look at the constitutional future of Wales and within the UK; to support the work of the UK-wide constitutional commission being established currently by the UK Labour Party to work across the four nations, but to work with other UK parties on this as well, and with the House of Lords, to press the UK Government for a more thoroughgoing federal reform of our constitution and our inter-governmental relations; to pursue the devolution of policing and justice, as recommended by the Thomas commission; and to challenge the UK internal market Act, not for political reasons, but to avoid a tax on devolution and to champion the rights of this Senedd to legislate without interference in areas that are currently devolved to Wales.

Now, look, sometimes, relationships do get strained—brother to brother, partners, teenage fledglings and stuck-in-the-mud parents—and I should say that none of this is autobiographical. [Laughter.] Relationships don't always work very smoothly; they hit bumps, sometimes big bumps, and if it's really bad, you sometimes question, 'Is it so bad that it is over, have we fallen out of love, should we go our separate ways?'

In the Plaid Cymru scenario—and it's a principled point—it is over, it always was over and should never have started: 'The union between England and Wales was a doomed relationship from the off, we should just now separate and call it a day'. But we have to acknowledge that the 'call it a day' scenario was tested robustly in the recent election and it didn't carry the public in Wales with it.

For the Conservatives, the union is a loving and beautiful relationship where the current Government in Westminster has only the best interests of Wales at heart and sometimes has to show some tough love to Wales to show how much they care. It's not disrespect, it's not talking down to the children, it's just laying down the house rules for the family and guests, it shows who is boss, and this is straining the relationship.

Welsh Labour is clear: the union is not working in its current shape and form, but it could work with radical urgent reform. Countries like Wales and Scotland and powerful parts of England where the powers and funding are increasingly devolved could be even more muscular and yet still collaborate—

Can the Member conclude his contribution, please?

I will indeed—yet still collaborate for the greater mutual long-term benefit of the nations and regions of the UK and the UK as a whole.

Deputy Presiding Officer, this old jalopy may have more life in it yet, but we have to avoid the situation where we run it into the ground, or we crash it into a hedge. And that's my worry with the UK Government's current approach.

Our role as representatives of the people of Wales is to secure the best possible lives for the people of our nation; to do everything possible to create a prosperous, fair and just Wales, which cares for everyone who calls Wales their home. If we don't do this, then we don't deserve to sit in this Chamber, nor are we worthy of representing those communities that have placed their faith in us to serve them.

Since 2010, the UK Conservative Government has restructured our welfare system in a harsh and unjust manner. Although it has the resources to ensure that our poorest children and families don't go hungry and fall through the net of the welfare state, it's failing to do so. Along with that, we must look at the failure of the Welsh Government to eradicate child poverty by 2020. Now, Wales has the highest rate of child poverty of any nation in the UK, with one in three children living in poverty. It's a national scandal; a damning reflection of the impact of Conservative austerity and 20 years of the failure of Labour in Wales to do little more than manage poverty.

Since 2016, Scotland has had control over 11 welfare benefits and the ability to create new benefits within devolved policy areas. So the question is: why do we not have the powers here in Wales? Even if the Welsh Government is against the devolution of welfare in its entirety to Wales, the least that they can do today is start the process to ensure equality for Wales at the same level as Scotland. Public opinion favours that. Polls have demonstrated that a majority is in favour of the devolution of welfare powers to our Parliament. A cross-party committee of the previous Senedd, chaired by a Member of the Labour Party, was in favour of that too. Funding experts are also in favour of that. According to the Wales Governance Centre's department, devolving welfare to Wales as has happened in Scotland could provide £200 million to the Welsh Government. And it would have a real impact on the future of the most needy in our country.

So, why does the Labour Welsh Government continue to drag its feet on devolving powers that will make Wales better off? Why deny Wales a further powerful lever that would help tackle poverty? Why not act to help lift up our people? During the election campaign, the First Minister said he believed powers over welfare benefits and most taxes are

'better discharged at a UK level.'

Even if the result is the highest level of child poverty in the United Kingdom? It would seem that the First Minister's belief in the union trumps his belief in social equality. The First Minister is effectively saying that the children of Wales living in poverty must wait—they must wait for a change of Government in Westminster, even if that takes 10 or 15 years, or more. Welsh families in need can't afford to wait that long. If this Government truly aspires to ensure dignity, fairness and a decent life for all of our people, there can be no argument against securing the means to do so. 

If providing dignity for our citizens is the baseline for the fair Wales we should all try to create, then the right to live free of persecution is also fundamental. Last year, after two years of delay, the UK Government announced its response to the consultation on reform of the Gender Recognition Act 2004. That flawed Act was supposed to allow trans people to receive legal recognition, but the bureaucratic, medical and expensive process prevented many from doing that. Despite the view of the majority of people who responded to the consultation on the Gender Recognition Act, the UK Government failed to secure a process that would assist trans people to live their daily lives with dignity.

We are currently celebrating Pride month, and as we do, we must reaffirm our commitment to the LGBT+ people of Wales that we respect their rights and will fight for their rights. If we devolve powers relating to the Gender Recognition Act to Wales, we could help ensure the right of trans people to live their lives as they wish, with dignity. It is disappointing, therefore, that the Welsh Labour Government have decided to remove this call from our motion with their amendment. This is despite Welsh Labour stating in their manifesto—

Would the Member conclude her contribution, please? 

I will conclude.

I quote:

'We will also work to devolve the Gender Recognition Act and support our Trans community.'

We need these powers—we need them now. It's time to act on the mandate given to us by the people of Wales, and I'd urge all Members to vote for the motion today. Diolch yn fawr.

The recent Senedd election saw a poor turnout of 47 per cent across Wales. There is still widespread confusion about what powers the Senedd currently has control over, and a massive piece of work needs to be done to get people to engage with the process we have here and the work we do to improve the lives of the people of Wales. This is a challenge not just for us here, but for devolved Governments right across the United Kingdom: to try to increase public awareness and involve them in the electoral process.

This should be a top priority for this Senedd, but instead, Plaid Cymru, Labour and the Liberal Democrats are intent on playing constitutional games here in Wales, consistently working against the UK Government and not with them, accusing the UK Government and Prime Minister of the whole of the United Kingdom of threatening devolution. All you're doing is calling for further powers and reform to our great union. It's not wanted here in Wales. We are stronger together—a part of the United Kingdom.

Why would the people of Wales want us to have any control over any more powers, when the Welsh Labour Government aren't effectively running Wales with the powers they currently have? Education in Wales isn't performing as it should be, various health boards have been in special measures, you've got people waiting for cancer treatment, waiting list times are going up, major infrastructure projects have been cancelled or delayed and our business sector feel neglected, and all you want to talk about is further powers and creating constitutional chaos, when the only job we should be doing is focusing on recovery and focusing on improving the lives of the people of Wales.

So, what is the aim here? What is your obsession with more powers? To many outside this Cardiff Bay bubble, this looks like state-building towards an independent Wales, and from the last results just over a month ago, there is no desire in my constituency of Brecon and Radnorshire, or Conwy or any of these Conservative benches, and wider, for independence or referendums or any more powers to this Senedd. The people of my constituency and the whole of Wales just want us to get on with the job. So, this motion should be voted down today, and let's just get on with the job of representing the people of Wales and not creating more confusion than what there currently is. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

I'd like to focus my contribution to this debate on the need to devolve broadcasting. This is an area that is devolved in other devolved nations, such as the Basque Country and Catalunya, and the powers have been used for the benefit of their languages.

The cross-party committee of the Silk commission, set up by the British Government itself, together with an opinion poll conducted by YouGov in 2017, found that over 60 per cent of people in Wales were in favour of devolving broadcasting to Wales. Therefore, public support for this is unambiguous. However, the British Government has refused to implement the commission's recommendation to devolve to the Welsh Government the few million pounds collected from taxpayers to fund S4C. Is there any other country in the world where power over its main channel and public broadcaster is held by another country? The communications committee of the fifth Senedd said that it was an anomaly that the powers over S4C rested in London rather than in the country where the language heard through the channel's content is spoken. That has to change. 

An increasing number of other bodies and organisations have also called on the British Government to go further, and they see the merits of the argument for the devolution of broadcasting in its entirety. The devolution of broadcasting would help people living here in Wales to better understand what's happening in their own country rather than receiving misinformation from the London media that fails to comprehend devolution. It's important, not only for the sake of our democracy ,but also, as the pandemic has shown, for the sake of our public health, that the people of Wales receive information that's relevant to their lives here in Wales. The devolution of broadcasting would also provide us with an opportunity to develop a diverse Welsh media that reflects the needs and interests of contemporary Wales. Local Welsh newspapers are dwindling, as are newspapers everywhere, and although BBC Radio 2 is the most listened to radio station here in Wales, Wales is very seldom mentioned.

The founding of S4C was a huge boost back in 1982—a tremendous boost to our nation, our identity and our culture—but much more is needed. We want to build on the success of S4C's existence in a very fragile political climate, where the survival of our own nation is under threat. Wales exists for everyone, whether they speak Welsh or not. S4C is wonderful, and as the mother of a small boy, Cyw has been a blessing, but we need more than just S4C to promote the self-esteem of our 3 million people and to promote the development of our nation as a whole. It's time for Wales to have a voice and for us as a people to have national conversations on improving how the country is governed. The devolution of broadcasting will be fundamental to that.

Responsibility for broadcasting and communication should be devolved in its entirety to this Senedd. This will give us the power to regulate the entire broadcasting spectrum here in Wales, including responsibility for the licence fee. We could also then establish a statutory financial formula for our Welsh language channels and platforms that would rise in line with inflation, offering long-term financial security to broadcasters and broadcasting here in Wales. Plaid Cymru has long argued that it is in the hands of this Senedd that powers over broadcasting in Wales should rest and not in the hands of Westminster, which knows next to nothing and cares even less about our communities. And now, for the first time in the history of Welsh politics, we have a cross-party consensus in favour of the devolution of broadcasting.

At the end of the last Senedd, the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee, which included Members not only from Plaid Cymru, but also from Labour and the Conservative Party, published a report on this issue. And their conclusion: that broadcasting should be devolved, with some agreeing that it should be devolved in its entirety, and others in favour of partial devolution. The devolution of broadcasting is key to our democracy. We have a cross-party consensus. Now is the time to act.

I welcome this opportunity to debate the devolution settlement. This is something we need to do. Can I make, initially, three general comments? Asymmetrical devolution does not work; Plaid Cymru appear to have a policy of salami-slicing to separatism, and we need a final, defined position on devolution to Wales, and, more importantly, within Wales. 

I am and have long been a supporter of devo max, and also of devolution within Wales to both the four Welsh regions and to local authorities. Fifty years ago, local government controlled water and sewage, further education, higher education outside university and directly controlled schools. Prior to 1950, policing was controlled by local authorities. All those and more have been taken out of local authority control. I support devo max, a movement to symmetrical devolution, but that must include English regions. A model of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland cannot work; England is too big compared to the rest. Any model has to involve the English regions, not just England.

There are the obvious areas that need to be held centrally unless you have independence. They are things such as defence, foreign affairs, national security, currency, interest rates, overseas aid, immigration, driver and car licensing, central bank and national insurance numbers. Everything outside of the above should be able to be devolved, but doesn't necessarily need to be devolved. Devolution in Wales does not have to end in Cardiff. Devolution within Wales is possible to be given to the four regions in Wales, and also to local authorities. We've had far too much centralism in Cardiff. Taking police, security at Westminster, serious crime—. Taking policing—. Security at Westminster, I think, dealing with serious crime at Cardiff, but local policing returned to local authorities who know what is needed to keep their areas safe. There are those areas that we were discussing whether they should be devolved or centralized. State pension age and amount—should we have one for the United Kingdom, or should each jurisdiction set its own? How would that work with movement between England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, including people living in Wales and working in England, and the other way around? And many people, and I include myself in that, have worked in England for a short time. Should we have one unified social security system, or should the levels be set by each of the areas? Should there be UK taxes to pay for the centrally-funded items, with all other taxes devolved and collected locally? How will financial support from the wealthier to the poorer regions be organised and maintained?

Despite legitimate criticism of the Barnett formula, and I've been one of those to criticise it, it has provided additional funding to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland compared to England, and it does take into account need—not as much as we might want it to, but we get more than we put in, and we get more than 100 per cent of what's been spent in England. And I think that looking to throw it out, without anything else in its place, can only do us harm. Everything does not have to be devolved to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland or the English city regions at the same time. What we need is a list of items that are available to be devolved, with each Parliament needing at least two thirds of Members voting in favour before it is devolved.

Why do I say that? Well, this is what happened in Northern Ireland when policing was devolved to Northern Ireland. This avoids a big-bang devolution where control of everything passes on one day, but allows for matters to be devolved as the Parliaments are ready for them, and, more importantly, the funding is agreed. And I think that many a Member will remember a previous Member of Plaid Cymru who said, 'Well, if we have policing devolved to us, we'll get 1.05 per cent of what we—we'll get 5 per cent more than we currently get to policing because of the way the devolution formula works.' That's good news, and Steffan Lewis was arguing in favour of devolution of policing, but I think that if we're going to do these things, we're going to have to try and become economically viable as well in terms of what we can and can't afford to do. It sets an end point to the devolution journey outside of creating new countries. It allows each to move at a pace it is comfortable with, but a common end point. 

Finally, devolution in Wales—again, I come back to this—does not have to end in Cardiff. It doesn't come down the M4 and stop. Devolution within Wales is possible, not just to the four regions, but also to the local authorities. What would be better dealt with by local authorities? The twentieth-century saw one-way movement out of local authorities centrally. We need to start moving more things back to local authorities. The question should be, 'Where is it best dealt with?', not, 'How much can we claim and how much can we take from local authorities at one end and Westminster at the other?' Devolution in Wales is a journey, but it must not only end in Cardiff. For true devolution, powers also need to be devolved to the regions and the councils of Wales. We need to think about devolving in Wales, not, 'When in doubt, put it in Cardiff.'

Thank you to Plaid Cymru for bringing forward today's debate, the first one I've had an opportunity to speak in, and it's been an interesting and impassioned debate so far through this evening. I just thought it would be useful to share some of my own reflections on what I've heard so far and the item before us, of course.

The opening part of Plaid Cymru's motion is quite a bold claim, in that the 

'sixth Senedd has a mandate for the devolution of significant further powers from Westminster to Wales.'

And what Plaid Cymru have failed to mention is, of course, the significant rejection of independence yet again at the latest set of elections. The people of Wales clearly know the strength of the United Kingdom and of us working together across that United Kingdom.

Plaid Cymru's second point seems again to completely disregard the powers that our Senedd already has over a vast array of areas, and it's clear that, more than ever, the Welsh people—the people of Wales—want a strong Senedd that works side-by-side with the UK Government, working together to achieve the best outcome for the people of Wales and, again, this was demonstrated in the referendum, as it were, last month at the elections, where residents came out and voted for parties who support building a stronger union across the United Kingdom.

On the third part of the motion today, my colleague Mr Millar eloquently described it as this rhetoric of a power grab that clearly is a myth and does not exist, because, as described earlier, the end of the transition period for the Brexit arrangements and the internal market Bill coming into play—that powers in at least 70 policy areas previously exercised at an EU level will come directly to here in the Senedd. Furthermore, none of the powers currently held by devolved administrations will be removed.

The final part of the motion, of course, from Plaid Cymru ends by outlining that they would seek further powers down here in the Senedd. But it's clear to me that the people of Wales—what they want is a strong recovery after a pandemic that we've all been having to grapple with, with jobs and the economy at the forefront of that.

Moving on to the Government's amendment, I was initially quite positive when I saw those words 'Delete all'—[Laughter.]—at the start of that amendment. But, unfortunately, I wasn't able to continue supporting the rest of what was described. In particular, I was disappointed that the Welsh Government continues to call for the devolution of policing and justice. Indeed, the Silk commission has estimated that it would cost around £100 million a year to create a separate Welsh jurisdiction, and I'm sure the people of Wales would be questioning why £100 million-worth of their money is being spent on a separate jurisdiction, when, actually, what they'd want is more police officers, a better probation service, more probation officers, as well as increasing capacity within our court and prison systems. So, that has to be questioned significantly.

Moving on to the Conservative amendment submitted by Darren Millar at the start of this debate, we are clear that there's no mandate for constitutional change or a further referendum on devolved powers. This was put, as I said earlier, to the voters at the ballot box, and they rejected this in their masses. As previously stated, the people of Wales continue to support a strong Wales in a strong United Kingdom, with the Welsh and UK Governments working together in the best interests of the people of Wales. And as previously expressed, we cannot forget the good work that has been shown across the United Kingdom through this pandemic with £6 billion-worth of extra funding given to the people of Wales to protect us here in our jobs, our incomes and our livelihoods. By working with the UK Government, not against it, we can maximise the benefits of this great United Kingdom.

To conclude, Deputy Llywydd, the future of Wales is best served as part of a strong United Kingdom. The last thing that the people of Wales need are further proposals from Plaid Cymru around constitutional chaos. And isn't it ironic that Plaid continue to push the false accusations that the UK Government are ripping up the devolution settlement, and in fact it's Plaid Cymru who are the only political party in Wales who want to rip up the devolution settlement, despite it being supported in multiple referendums? I urge all Members to vote for our Conservative amendment, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. Diolch yn fawr iawn. 

Finally, Delyth Jewell. 

Because I know she'll be succinct in her contribution. 

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. 

What is the purpose of a power? Why have we in Plaid Cymru used our first debate of the sixth Senedd to talk about our legislature's remit? Well, a power is a vehicle. It proffers the ability to do something. It offers the capacity to change. In our motion, we set out wide-ranging areas where, if we do not gain these powers from Westminster, we will regress, because the powers have to exist somewhere and if they're not here, they will lie with Westminster. Westminster, which might shortly only boast 32 Welsh MPs, a 20 per cent decrease—a figure that I doubt is matched in any other example in the world in terms of loss of representation. Dirprwy Lywydd, when I was preparing for this debate, I found out that the last time that the number of Welsh MPs was changed to 32 was in 1832, the year of the Great Reform Act, when our seats increased to that number. Now, in 1831, the population of Wales was 904,312. Since then, our population has increased by over 248 per cent. And yet we will be left with the same level of representation as at the start. In 1832, they had to deal with rotten boroughs; today, we have to deal with rotten Boris. 

If this Senedd does not hold the powers our motion sets out, those powers will not disappear. There is no vacuum. They will reside in Westminster, where there will be fewer MPs to scrutinise. We will have no power and no voice—a new era not of great reform, but of great regression. 

One of the areas where we would like to see movement would be to devolve the Crown Estate. That would not only boost our economy, it would give us more control over the resources that would be so important for us to invest in as part of our green recovery and in the fight against climate change. Following the Scottish independence referendum in 2014, the Crown Estate was devolved to Scotland, but in Wales revenues continue to disappear to the Treasury and to Buckingham Palace, and that revenue is substantial. It is estimated that the Westminster Government could raise up to £9 billion over the next decade by auctioning offshore land to people who will develop sustainable energy sources. Wales is about to lose out on the green economic rent from our own resources.

And, turning to energy projects, we have consent for renewable energy schemes of up to 350 MW, but control over the grid infrastructure that distributes the electricity to our homes remains with Westminster. This clearly hinders Wales's ability to invest in major projects. The obvious example of this was the tidal lagoon in Swansea. Westminster was unwilling to support that project, so the project didn't happen. 

And on the subject of reducing our infrastructure, what about the railways? Wales has 11 per cent of the railway track in these islands, but receives only 1 per cent of the investment. And while transport is a devolved area, rail infrastructure is not. What a mess, Llywydd, and this mess means that investment once again is not coming to the people of Wales. It also means that we are losing out on billions of pounds that we would have gained through Barnett as a result of HS2—money that we could have invested in our country. 

Deputy Llywydd, I'll just conclude by saying that this debate is supposed to be about creating opportunities, opening up spaces, not shutting things down as the Tories want to do, evidently. It's so disappointing also that the Government has started a new term by using the same old trick of 'delete all' on our motion. We will need more ambition than that. 

I call on the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution, Mick Antoniw.

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to participate in this debate today. It's our first opportunity since the Senedd elections to consider some of the serious constitutional challenges facing Wales and the rest of the UK, and I am indeed grateful to Plaid Cymru for choosing to table this motion as one of their first debates of this sixth Senedd. It is likely to be the first of many such debates. In the last Senedd, as Chair of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee, I recall introducing a report on constitutional reform, and I prefaced my introduction by saying it was probably one of the most boring reports Members would ever have to read, but, equally so, one of the most important, and I haven't changed my view. So, those who say that these constitutional issues are not important are fundamentally wrong, because they go to the heart of our democracy—they define what we can and cannot do, the extent to which we can make decisions on the issues that are important to the people of Wales, our ability to improve prosperity and to take decisions that will improve the quality of life of the people of Wales, and that is why we are here and that is why this Welsh Parliament exists and is so important to our future and indeed to that of the United Kingdom.

Now, whilst I will not be supporting the Plaid Cymru motion in the form it has been tabled, it is clear that there is a lot of common ground on the mandate for reform and on the areas that we are in long-standing agreement need to be devolved if we are to be able to deliver on our promises to the people of Wales. The Conservative amendment I have to say is disappointing in the extreme; it is sadly indicative of a party that is in denial. In my opinion, there is a clear and undeniable mandate for reform. The mandate for this Government couldn't be clearer: as our manifesto set out, we will work for a new and successful United Kingdom based on a far-reaching federalism. We want to foster a national civic conversation in Wales about our future. We will establish an independent standing commission to consider the constitutional future of Wales.

Now, returning to the Conservative amendment, on point 2, it is right to say that there has been and continues to be constructive inter-governmental work to deliver the common frameworks programme on a collaborative basis. However, we cannot talk about frameworks without highlighting the assault on devolution contained in some of the provisions of the UK internal market Act.

On point 3 of the Conservative amendment, we agree that, for example, work on the vaccination programme has demonstrated the effectiveness of working together across the four nations. Sadly, too often, this has been achieved in spite of the UK Government rather than because of it. Only last month, Sir David Lidington, a Cabinet Office Minister in Theresa May's Government, delivered a lecture on the union, which he described as being

'in greater peril than at any moment in my lifetime'.

I think the opposition would also do well to heed the advice of their former Member David Melding, who recently wrote that the Conservatives will win an election in Wales when they are confident in how they can creatively use the devolved institutions, and that most democratic multinational states have a devolved or federal structure. Yet we now have a UK Government that, faced with the potential break-up of the UK, instead of choosing to embrace change and to seek consensus with the nations of the UK and the regions of England, has decided that the way forward is to centralise power and to undermine devolution by deliberately trying to achieve through financial manipulation what they cannot achieve through the ballot box. We have a leadership in the UK Conservative Government that cannot even bring itself to refer to a 'Welsh Government', choosing always to refer instead to a 'devolved administration'. And we now learn that Ministers are no longer to refer to the nations of the United Kingdom, but instead only to refer to the UK as a country. Dirprwy Lywydd, this strategy will fail. If the Conservative Government believes that it can airbrush Wales and devolution out of existence in this way, they will fail, because the UK can only survive if it is a genuine association of sovereign nations working together with common purpose. Sovereignty does not lie with Westminster, nor does it lie in Holyrood or here in the Senedd in Cardiff Bay. Sovereignty in Wales lies where it always has, with the people of Wales, and how they choose to exercise that sovereignty is and must always be a matter for them.

Now, Members will know that the Welsh Government has driven the debate on constitutional reform. It is nearly a decade since we first called for a constitutional convention on the future of the UK, but the need to discuss and debate these issues is now greater than ever. In particular, we want to hold a conversation, an engagement, with the people of Wales, to find a consensus among citizens and civic society about the way forward for devolution and the constitution. It is therefore on this basis that we will be pressing forward with our manifesto commitment to establish an independent commission to consider the constitutional future of Wales.

We will also be supporting the work of the UK-wide constitutional commission being established by the UK Labour Party. Our aim is to work across the nations and political parties to press the UK Government for a more thorough reform of our constitution. We are in the process of drawing up our plans for our commission, and I hope to make further announcements about this in the coming weeks, but I'm very clear that engagement of the Welsh public and of civic society will be a central part of our approach, and, in the meantime, we will be publishing later this month a refreshed and updated version of 'Reforming our Union'. Members will recall that we published this in 2019, based on around 20 propositions for the future governance of the UK. Our refresh will take account of developments since 2019, reflecting upon the implications of the approach taken by the UK Government since December 2019 as well as on the further thinking that's been undertaken across the political and academic spectrum about the need for reform.

The case for the devolution of policing and justice has been compellingly made by the Commission on Justice in Wales, but I do think it is unhelpful simply to present a shopping list of further powers that we want without a guiding principle and without tackling the structural changes needed to their operation and financing. That is what 'Reforming our Union' offered—a vision of how a true partnership could work between the four nations participating voluntarily, a vision based on mutual respect, regular conversation, fair funding and coherent sets of powers, using the principle of subsidiarity. Now, when we update that document, I hope it will help kick start a national conversation about the future of this country. Above all, we need genuine engagement with the Welsh people to make sure their voice is heard in what will be a critical and radical conversation about the future of Wales and the UK.

So, in conclusion, Dirprwy Lywydd, we reject the Conservative attempt to suggest that there's nothing amiss with the constitutional status quo, and, whilst we agree with some of the sentiments behind the Plaid motion, we want to put our finger on the bigger conversations that are needed now about the future of devolution and the constitution, and to make sure that the views of the people of Wales are at the heart of these conversations. That is the fundamental thrust of our amendment. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

No additional Members have indicated that they wish to make an intervention, so I call on Rhys ab Owen to reply to the debate.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. May I first of all thank Darren Millar for his kind words?

It's a shame that he didn't stop after the kind words. Darren Millar mentioned that, in his maiden speech in 2007, the fire alarms went off—well, Darren, I'm sure that the alarm bells are going off in the union unit in Downing Street, because Wales is on the march and constitutional change will happen, whether you like it or not.

And let's hope that day comes quickly that we will have on the Conservative benches once again people who are willing to consider great constitutional issues, such as David Melding, Nick Bourne and Lisa Francis.

Huw Irranca-Davies—I'm very pleased to hear you mention radical reform.

I was pleased to hear you talk about the relationship of equals. If so, why can't we state now the powers we want? We have the consensus. Why can't we start the process now? You say, by the way, that independence was rejected in the ballot paper. You should have a word with the Welsh Labour for indy lot about that, and the Wales Governance Centre, which had over 40 per cent of independence supporters voting for the Labour Party in the last election.

Sioned Williams told us that we don't want power for power's sake. This isn't some ego boost for the Senedd. We want powers in order to improve the lives of the people of Wales. Why shouldn't we devolve welfare to the same level as Scotland? Why can't we have consensus on this now? Why can't we ask for this now? The children of Wales, as Sioned Williams said, should not have to wait any longer for that. 

They shouldn't be expected to wait to come out of poverty. 

James Evans—confusion about devolution. Well, it doesn't help that policing and justice isn't devolved in Wales, but it is everywhere else in the United Kingdom—policing devolved in Manchester, policing devolved in London. You're creating—you're creating—the confusion. And Heledd Fychan, my colleague, was completely right in saying devolving broadcasting would help to deal with the confusion that you mention. If you asked the majority of people out there on the streets, 'Who funds S4C?', the majority would tell you it's funded here in Cardiff Bay, but it's not, is it? It's in Westminster. You are creating that confusion, and I won't take any lessons from the Conservative Party about constitutional chaos, as you mentioned, James Evans. Just you ask the people of Northern Ireland about constitutional chaos today, about what you have done with Brexit.

Mike Hedges, I'm glad you support—[Interruption.] I'm glad you support devo—[Interruption.] And Northern Ireland did, and you're causing chaos there. I'm glad that Mike Hedges supports devo max, and I'm glad that there's obvious cross-party support, even from the Conservatives, to decentralise power. I'm glad to hear that we can continue working with that to decentralise power from London, and from Cardiff.

Devolution of justice—Sam Rowlands mentioned devolution of justice, that it won't help anyone. Well, you're ignoring expert after expert. You're ignoring the former Lord Chief Justice, an independent review that said that justice would be better served here in Cardiff Bay, that the people of Wales would be better served with justice being here. I know the Conservative Party enjoys ignoring experts, but you can't just continue ignoring the Silk commission, the Thomas commission, just using the same old boring argument over and over again.

You mentioned furlough, about the UK Government support. Well, you weren't supporting Welsh workers in the first firebreak when the Welsh Government did that. You only gave us furlough when the south-east of England was going into lockdown.

Delyth Jewell—power is a vehicle to do something. Again, my point: we're not asking for devolution for devolution's sake—we're asking for devolution to improve the lives of the people of Wales. Thirty two Welsh MPs soon, as Delyth Jewell reminded us. Our voice will get lost. We're an afterthought at best in Westminster; we'll get lost altogether now. Boris Johnson today didn't even know that Wales was going to play in the Euros on Saturday. That's the level of understanding we have in Westminster.

And in terms of the Crown Estate—as Delyth mentioned, another example of Wales being failed time and time again. And the tidal lagoon supported by the Conservatives for a while, and then that disappeared too. 

Counsel General, may I congratulate you on your appointment? I know of the work that you've been doing in promoting devolution since the 1970s, and I know about your aspiration to have a more radical and federal UK. 

It is a real shame—you mentioned there is common ground—it's a real shame when we had our first opportunity to work together that Labour fell back again and said just 'delete all'. We have an opportunity here to get that far-reaching federalism. Why can't we say now what we want? It's nothing new. Keir Hardie was mentioning it back at the beginning of the last century and, to him—to him, to Keir Hardie—home rule meant the same level as Canada, New Zealand, and so there's nothing new. Why can't we state clearly now, 'These are the powers we need for the people of Wales'? Why are we kicking things into the long grass once again? We don't need another commission to deal with matters where there is consensus.

May I urge Members therefore to support the Plaid Cymru motion today—support the Plaid Cymru motion—for a stronger Senedd and a stronger Wales, so that our Senedd can be empowered to deliver for all of the people of Wales? Diolch yn fawr. 

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Objection, and I will defer voting under this item until voting time.  

Voting deferred until voting time.

And, in accordance with Standing Order 12.18, I will suspend the meeting before proceeding to voting time. 

Plenary was suspended at 17:44.

The Senedd reconvened at 17:53, with the Deputy Presiding Officer in the Chair.