I do think, Llywydd, that the Member doesn't give proper credit to the advances that were made in the CAMHS service in the two years prior to the onset of the coronavirus pandemic, because the figures did improve, and they improved significantly across Wales. The service was on a path of real improvement. I've answered many questions on the floor of this Senedd, from the time I was health Minister, and it's always been my view that what you need for young people is a range of services so that not everybody ends up being referred to the CAMHS service as the first step in getting help with a mental health issue. Part of the problem with the CAMHS service has been that a very large number of people who are referred to it turn out not to be suitable candidates for that service. All of those young people have got to be assessed, all of those young people then get into the queue in front of other people for whom that service genuinely is the response that is necessary.

What we have to do is to draw the people who are referred to CAMHS when they should and could be very properly provided for by a school counselling service, or sometimes even by people who are equipped with first aid mental health knowledge and understanding in universal services like the youth service, to be able to help those young people who need help of that sort—the help, as I said, Llywydd, that when you talk to young people themselves, that is the help that they most often raise with you: things that are easily available, close to hand, part of the normal run of things with which they are engaged. And then the people who need a CAMHS service will be able to get to that service more quickly. The service was well on that journey. It is inevitably disrupted by coronavirus. And, as I said, the service is working very hard to try and find creative ways in which it can go on providing a timely service for those young people who need it, despite the limitations on the extent to which they are able to do that in more conventional face-to-face ways.