Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 3:54 pm on 29 June 2021.
Look, he makes an important point about how this plan can be further developed, what more could be added to it, and I look forward to hearing from him further on those things. I don't think he will further his own cause, however, if he's not prepared to face up to the very direct choice that was put to the people of Wales back in May, and in my view, it was the most clearly-put choice in the whole history of devolution. As I said, I stood in tv studios, and on one side of me was a man who wanted to argue for the abolition of devolution altogether, to abolish the whole Assembly, and he made his case to Welsh people. On the other side of me was somebody who wanted to persuade people that Wales should be taken out of the United Kingdom altogether, and he put that case front and centre in his campaign. And Plaid Cymru lost ground—it didn't gain ground, it lost ground in this election, and I don't think I could have been clearer, time after time after time, in broadcasts, in leaflets, in every chance I had, to say that the Labour Party stood for powerful devolution in a successful United Kingdom. And in the end, that is where people in Wales made their choice, and I think people in Plaid Cymru too need to be willing to—. 'Blinkers off', said Rhun ap Iorwerth. Well, in a blinkers-off world, then I think some thought has to be given to that as well.