1. Will the Minister provide an update on plans for a universal basic income for Wales? OQ56695

I thank the Member for that question. Our programme for government commits us to piloting an approach to basic income as a means to supporting those in greatest need. Work is under way and we have begun designing a pilot, scoping this work and determining how it will be implemented and measured.

Diolch. Can I thank the Minister for that answer? The Centre for Social Justice's report, 'Universal Basic Income: An Effective Policy for Poverty Reduction', argues that UBI is unaffordable, putting at risk the provision of important services in healthcare and in education, adding that it, quote,

'Doesn’t meet the needs of low income households facing complex problems such as drug addiction, dangerous debt, and family breakdown', and

'Provides a major disincentive to find work', and

'Is no more generous to the most disadvantaged households than the provisions under Universal Credit.

In addition, we also know that studies show that UBI also has a limited effect on people's overall engagement with the labour market, and they also ask whether a higher rated UBI would be so expensive that it's difficult to invest in other essential services, such as the cost of construction of new social housing and the provision of low-cost public transport. So, with the evidence against UBI stacking up, Minister, will you outline which of our public services in Wales you think will need to be cut in order to afford it?

Well, I'm sure that Tom Giffard will have had sight of the very useful and, I think, informative Public Health Wales report, which was just published last week. It does actually suggest that introducing a basic income scheme in Wales could be a catalyst for better health and well-being outcomes for all. Clearly, these are early days. There's a range of views. We're looking at all of the pilots, listening to stakeholders, and, indeed, it's been widely welcomed locally, nationally and internationally that we are progressing with this pilot. Universal basic income is about alleviating poverty, but it's also about giving people more control over their lives and having a positive effect on mental health and well-being. And we're focused on how a small basic income pilot could be designed to support those in greatest need, potentially involving people leaving care.

The Minister won't be surprised to hear that Plaid Cymru is very supportive of UBI, and we look forward to seeing the final proposal from the Government on the pilot. Very quickly, has the Minister approached the Department for Work and Pensions to ensure that there's an arrangement in place so that any basic income payment isn't counted against any recipients who might also be in receipt of universal credit? I'm sure the Minister would agree with me that the last thing we'd want to happen is for those in receipt of a basic income to be worse off in the end. 

I'm grateful for that question because, as we take the pilot forward, very much at the scoping and early stages, we are focused on how the pilot could be designed to support those in greatest need, but ensuring that those who are receiving benefits or welfare are not made worse as a result. So, clearly, we then will engage, as we scope the pilot, with discussions with the DWP to take us forward. But, also, we have learnt a lot by drawing on the experience of Scotland who have already undertaken quite a bit of work on this, to ensure that we learn from them because they have already tested this in terms of the UBI trial in Scotland. 

I think it's also very important that I draw the Member's attention to the fact that, last year, in fact, the Senedd did also approve and a motion was passed—we have a new Senedd now, but last Senedd—to establish a UBI trial in Wales. So, I think there is great interest, and we need to now take this forward and listen to our stakeholders to make sure that we draw on the experience of Scotland and other countries around the world, that we do the complex work, and then I can ensure that we work together, as far as possible, I think, cross-party, because there's a lot of interest cross-party, even from the former Senedd Member David Melding, who wrote on this in former times.