1. What discussions has the Counsel General had with the legal sector on ways in which social justice could be promoted through legislation? OQ56672

Thank you, Jack Sargeant. I have regular discussions with the legal sector on a range of matters, including legislation relating to justice.

I thank the Counsel General for that answer, and I'm very grateful for your obvious commitment—and long-standing commitment—to social justice. In your conversations with the legal profession in Wales, what references have been made to the legal aid cuts, and do you agree with me that the UK Government cuts mean it is far harder for most people, particularly working class people, to get justice in Wales and across the whole of the UK? And will you also, Counsel General, agree to meet with me and with my office to discuss this issue further?

Well, first of all, yes, I will be happy to meet with you and any other Members in respect of the issue of access to justice and the issues around legal aid. It's an issue which in previous Senedd sessions I've spoken on, and, of course, is a matter that very much engages the concerns, I think, of the judiciary and also of the Thomas commission. When legal aid was introduced in 1948, Viscount Simon, presenting the report, described it basically as an NHS of legal advice and support for the people. He said:

'I therefore commend this Report to the House with this simple reflection, that whatever the difficulties may be in the way of poverty, no citizen should fail to get the legal aid or advice which is so necessary to establish his or her full rights. I hold...that this is an essential reform in a true democracy'.

And I think that comment stands as much today as it did when NHS was in. What is unfortunate, I think, in some ways, is that the ethos of the purpose of legal advice and support is being reduced to an issue of cost rather than it is about fundamental empowerment of people within a democracy. This is an issue that's been raised. Lord Neuberger as president of the Supreme Court raised this particular issue, and basically said that:

'Cutting the cost of legal aid deprives the very people who most need the protection of the courts of the ability to get legal advice and representation.'

And another Supreme Court judge in 2018, Lord Wilson, said that:

'Even where it is required to continue to provide free legal aid, for example to defendants to criminal charges and to parents threatened with the removal of their children, the UK is dismantling it indirectly by setting rates of remuneration for the lawyers at levels so uncommercial that, reluctantly, most of them feel unable to do that work. Access to justice is under threat in the UK.'

And it has been for some time, and you only need to look at the figures over the past decade. In 2011, the real terms value of spending on legal aid in Wales was £128 million; the amount of spend on legal aid now is £80 million—a 37 per cent reduction. A reduction, in fact, compared with a 28 per cent reduction in England, and I think what that does is reflect the actual demand for legal support in Wales has not been so much within the criminal field, but it's been very much within the social arena. Effectively, we have now advice deserts. Welsh Government has invested enormous amounts of money—

Minister, I do ask my colleagues to be brief in their questions; I will also ask Ministers to be brief in their answers as well, please. 

Thank you for that, Deputy Presiding Officer. I think, then, I'll just conclude on that particular question by basically saying that the advice and support that's put forward by Welsh Government is an attempt to repair the gap that exists at the moment, but certainly an unsatisfactory repair.

Too many disabled people continue to suffer social injustice because of the barriers to access and inclusion placed in their way at all levels of society. On 24 February this year, the Senedd voted in support of my Member's legislative proposal for a British Sign Language—or BSL—Bill. As a member of the cross-party group on deaf issues in the Senedd since 2003, and as chair of the cross-party group on disability in previous Senedd terms, this is an issue I've long been involved with in both north and south Wales. My proposed Bill would make provision to encourage the use of BSL in Wales, and improve access to education and services in BSL. As you know, however, the vote here in February only noted my legislative proposal, and a Bill therefore needs to be successfully proposed in this Parliament so that legislation can go forward, commencing with a wide public consultation. What discussions have you had, therefore, or will you have with the legal sector on ways in which the objectives of my proposed Bill could be promoted through legislation?

Thank you for the question. Obviously, the issue of individual Members' legislation is a matter for you, and it's a matter for the Senedd. What I'm keen to do is to actually have discussions with the legal profession collectively about the way in which we are able to actually provide the advice and the support that give support to our communities, all those who are actually the most vulnerable and in need. And I'd also draw your attention to the fact that it's the Conservative Government's proposals that, effectively, have excluded legal aid from all those issues of welfare and social areas that used to exist many years ago that now would probably be the substance of support to some of the objectives that you actually have. But I'm more than happy to have further discussions on that issue.