I thank Mike for those comments. They are very pertinent comments. He's absolutely right; people clearly do, when you ask them about devolution, want decision-making processes as close to them as possible and to know that they can have the opportunity to influence those.

Can I say that I do agree also that how we reach out and we build engagement with others in various forms of devolved government, whether it be the regional mayors, whether it be the other nations of the UK, is equally important? It's building up alliances—building up and recognising common interests. I think one of the weaknesses to constitutional reform within the UK is that there hasn't been any civic hegemony around the fact that there is a need for change, and that everyone has a common interest in it. This isn't just about Wales. Obviously, we are here to look at the future of Wales, to have a commission to look at that, but this is equally as important, in terms of the democracy and civic engagement, within England as well. Our harmony, our engagement with England and with the other nations of the UK is as important to us as many other matters. 

In terms of governance, and the issue that he raises of further decentralisation of power, that is something that I've always supported, but when I said that it would be looking at governance within Wales, that has to include how governance can be better, and how governance might need to be closer to people. We often use this quote, don't we, that Nye Bevan said:

'The purpose of getting power is to be able to give it away.'

Others talked about the withering away of the state over many years, but all these come back to one thing: how do you give greater empowerment to people as close to people as possible?

That brings us on to the other point that Mike raised, which is directly relevant, and that is also recognising our interdependencies. I think, no matter what position you take, whether it be unionism, whether it be federalism, confederalism, independence or whatever version, they still all bring you back ultimately to how you engage with your neighbours, and what level of interdependency you have on issues, whether it be finance, whether it be currency or whatever, but what the mechanism should be to enable that to happen fairly within all the participants. And that seems to me the crux of that issue, so I agree with you on that very much.