Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Sam Rowlands.

Diolch, Llywydd, and good afternoon, Minister. How would you describe the current relationship that councils have with Natural Resources Wales?

Well, I think that the current relationship that councils have with Natural Resources Wales is very useful because they both have shared concerns in terms of ensuring that our environment and our approach to climate change is very much at the heart of both agendas—there are shared agendas there. But if my colleague has any particular concerns, I'd be happy to take them up with NRW or the Welsh Local Government Association as appropriate. 

Thank you very much for your response, Minister. As you'll be aware, at the start of July, the leaders of Wales's 22 local authorities called on Welsh Government to review the powers and remit of the public body responsible for looking after the environment here in Wales—Natural Resources Wales. And as you'll be aware, my colleague Janet Finch-Saunders raised this issue with the Minister for Climate Change in July as well, who welcomed the feedback from the WLGA and stated that she'd be having continued discussion with the WLGA and Natural Resources Wales through you as the local government Minister. So, I hope those discussions are going well. But do you think councils have the ability to deliver some of the responsibilities that currently sit with Natural Resources Wales?

Well, we've always said that we will look to devolve powers to the correct level of governance, and there are certainly areas where we could look to devolve further powers from Welsh Government to local authorities. But, again, if this is a particular area where there are ideas that come from the WLGA, in partnership with Natural Resources Wales, then I'd be interested in hearing those shared ideas and concerns.

Thank you for that as well, Minister. As you know, one of the issues that councils have raised within their correspondence with Welsh Government is the difficulty to hold Natural Resources Wales to account at times. In the letter from the leaders of the 22 councils I referred to, written by the leader of the WLGA, Andrew Morgan, they state in that, and I'll quote,

'when dealing with events at a local level there can still be tensions over decisions and choices that have to be made, related to wider governance issues.'

And furthermore, in relation to severe flooding events seen in recent times, in Rhondda in particular, local members have stated that there's a possibility of legal action taking place against Natural Resources Wales. So, there seems to me a deficiency of democracy in holding Natural Resources Wales to account at time. And because of the democratic nature of councils, if councils held some of the functions that currently sit in Natural Resources Wales, do you think there'd be greater accountability and transparency?

I'm aware of the letter to which you refer and the concerns around the Rhondda issue in particular, which is why I'm reluctant to go into too much more detail in terms of a response to that particular issue this afternoon. But I will endeavour to have some discussions further with the Minister for Climate Change in terms of the points that you've raised this afternoon and those concerns that the WLGA I know have raised directly with her.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd.

Thank you very much, Llywydd. We know, of course, that local authorities have suffered increasing cuts over the past decade—cuts of around 22 per cent in real terms since 2010. Now, we also hear what the implications of that are in terms of services, and in that regard, of course, most recently in terms of social care. Now, I'm sure everyone across the Chamber, and the political spectrum, would agree that there are insufficient funds in the system to meet the need, and to meet that need with the required quality.

We heard the Westminster Government's response last week. Their choice is to increase national insurance, and that will, of course, impact us in Wales. One of the side effects of that, of course, is that there'll be a requirement for employers in Wales to pay an additional share of that national insurance. And I heard in a meeting today with the WLGA that the price of that for local authorities in Wales will be an additional £50 million, which they will have to find to meet that need. Now, in a situation where the public sector, of course, is already under pressure financially, I would like to ask you how you interpret what the implications of that would be for local authorities, and, more specifically, what additional support you as a Government will be providing to local authorities to meet that additional requirement?

Thank you for raising this important issue this afternoon. I think there's a great deal to be concerned about in terms of the UK Government's approach to the future funding of health and social care, not least because the measures will disproportionately impact and burden working-age people. Most pensioners, of course, will pay nothing. And this, of course, is contrary to the principle of inter-generational fairness, which is at the heart—or certainly part of the heart—of the work that the Holtham Commission undertook.

In terms of what funding might become available for Welsh Government in future, we understand that the Barnett consequential arising from the recent announcements might be in the region of around £600 million a year. But what we don't know is what the impact really is in terms of the larger picture, because, of course, the Barnett consequentials give and they also take away. So, we'll have to wait until 27 October before we're able to see the full envelope for Welsh Government funding for the next three years. And it's at that point that we'll really be able to understand the impact in terms of our overall funding levels and to take those choices about support for local government. But I've already said that, in our early discussions about the budget for next year, we will continue to prioritise health and continue to look to give local government the best possible settlement.  

Well, yes, thank you for that. Perhaps we don't know how much will come to Wales, but we know that there will be a significant cost for employers and local authorities. That's one aspect of the public sector, of course. You can multiply that across the rest of the public sector in Wales as well. So, I would encourage you to consider additional support specifically for that. 

Now, as a society, of course, we have deputised care to those on the lowest level of wages in Wales, and those who receive the lowest level of support, and that can't continue. There are around 64,000 social care workers in Wales. Each one of them, in our opinion, deserve the pay and conditions that reflect the importance of the role that they fulfil for society. We, as a party, have been calling for all social care to be free of charge at the point where it is needed. Also, to introduce a minimum wage of £10 an hour for social care workers, and to shift the funding towards preventative investments that would, of course, transform the requirements within the health system in the long term. Now, the cost of implementing those policies is affordable, but, of course, we need the political will to make that happen. 

It was announced yesterday that an inter-ministerial group on paying for social care will meet again in light of the UK Government's announcement. So, can I ask what the scope of that group's work will be? Perhaps you can expand on that. And, of course, can you be clear on whether it will only be considering paying for care alone? Or, whether there'll be a discussion on how we can use that funding to improve the quality of the care and the well-being of the workforce. Because another message that we receive from local authorities is that, yes, the funding is a problem, but people are a problem as well. And there is a deficit in the workforce and that's just as much of a risk.  

I think there are two things that we need to do here. The first is to address the immediate pressures that we see within the social care sector here in Wales, which are quite acute now, and you will have heard my colleague, the Minister for health, talking about the impact that has on people being discharged from hospital and so on. So, there's an immediate issue in terms of the social care sector. Part of that is about pay, part of it's about recognition and the kudos of the role. Despite the fact that I think that everybody has woken up to the value of these roles over the past couple of years, we need to make sure that these are roles that people want to go into, which are valued and are valued in the way in which we intend to value through the real living wage, for example. And you'll know that the Deputy Minister for Social Partnership has met with the forum, and asked for the views and recommendations on implementing the real living wage so that we don't do so in a way which destabilises even further the very fragile sector. So, that's the immediate challenge, really, in terms of the workforce.

But that longer term challenge is the one which we were seeking to address through the inter-ministerial group pre COVID, and that was in response to the work which Professor Holtham did in his report, which set out ways in which we could raise funding for social care in the future. And we had a number of additional pieces of work alongside that, which we commissioned, which we published through the course of the last Senedd, which, again, set out potential ways in which we could address the future of care. 

I can assure you that the group has looked beyond how we pay for care and the mechanisms of raising the finance and distributing the finance. It was very much about how we use this opportunity to improve care, improve the experience of the workforce. Because we know that when the workforce feels valued it stays, and when people are seeing the same people every day that gives an improvement to the kind of care and relationships and the outcomes for those individuals. So, I just want to reassure you that all of those points, which you've described, are very much part of the work. It's not just about raising the finance. 

In the hope, of course, that there will be a gear change in terms of how quickly these issues are solved, because, as you say, there are problems and there are pressures that we need to deal with, as well as the structural questions that are more long term. 

You referred earlier on to some of the groups and the sectors that will be impacted negatively by the decision of the Westminster Government to increase national insurance contributions, and perhaps I'd like to hear some of your ideas now about how you as a Government will try to rectify those negative impacts on those who will be affected disproportionately. And, of course, as is done in Scotland, it's time for us to build the case for devolving powers over national insurance to this Senedd, rather than leaving it up to Westminster to introduce the changes in a way that will have a negative impact on people in Wales. Now, the First Minister agreed with Adam Price here in this Chamber yesterday that devolving national insurance would provide a useful tool for the Welsh Government. And if I remember rightly, he said that he would have argued that that would have been more useful than the devolution of income tax. Can I ask what your opinion is, as Minister for finance, about the need to be robust on devolving national insurance, and also what case are you making to promote that with the Westminster Government?

Well, you’ll be very aware of the work which was undertaken by the committee in the last Senedd which recommended the devolution of various aspects of the administration of the welfare and benefits system here in Wales. This is absolutely something that we can be looking at. I think we need to understand better the nature of the workforce here in Wales to understand the impacts of any changes on national insurance contributions in terms of the profile, if you like, of the workers that we have here. But, obviously, it’s something that we can look at alongside the work which we’re already undertaking in terms of the response to that report, which recommended that we look into the devolution of various aspects of welfare and benefits.