The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Welcome back, and the next item is the Welsh Conservatives' debate, access to defibrillators. I call on Gareth Davies to move the motion.

Motion NDM7771 Darren Millar

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Notes that only 1 in 10 people survive an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest.

2. Further notes that for every minute a patient does not have access to a defibrillator or cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR), their chances of survival drops by 10 per cent.

3. Recognises that a network of defibrillators will save lives.

4. Calls on the Welsh Government to provide grant funding or loans to enable community halls, sports grounds and independent shops to buy and install a defibrillator.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much, Deputy Llywydd. It's a pleasure to open this debate in the name of Darren Millar on behalf of the Welsh Conservative group. This motion today is something I know garners huge cross-party support. The out-of-hospital cardiac arrest survival rate in Wales is the lowest in the UK and one of the lowest in Europe. This is something that all of us in this Chamber should do all we can to improve in Wales. What better way to follow up on World First Aid Day, which happened at the weekend, and to mark Save a Life September, than by supporting this motion before us? Some 30,000 people across the UK suffer a cardiac arrest outside of hospital every year, with only one in 10 people before the pandemic surviving. And now, the British Heart Foundation are estimating that one in 20 people survive as a consequence of the pandemic. 

Defibrillators play a huge part in saving someone's life when they suffer a cardiac arrest. If used within five minutes of a cardiac arrest, it can increase survival rates from 6 per cent to 74 per cent. Without immediate treatment, the vast majority of sudden cardiac arrest victims will die, which is why access to defibrillators is so important. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank Calon Hearts for providing defibrillators in my hometown of Prestatyn and at Denbigh Rugby Club. These vital machines will undoubtedly save the lives of my constituents, but we need so many more of them. While charities such as Calon Hearts, the British Heart Foundation, as well as rotary clubs up and down the country are doing what they can, the Welsh Government needs to step up. 

They have to ensure that there are defibs in every community in Wales and legions of people trained in CPR. Without these two vital links in the chain of survival, far too many people die from a cardiac arrest. We have all seen the stories over the past few weeks about the performance of our ambulance service. The Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust is overworked and overwhelmed. In my health board, Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board, only half of all 999 red calls receive a response within the eight-minute target. Our motion points out the chance of surviving a cardiac arrest decreases by 10 per cent every minute. It's no wonder that the survival rate of cardiac arrest in Wales is the lowest of the United Kingdom nations. Just over 4.5 per cent of people survive a cardiac arrest in Wales. Over the border in England, twice as many people survive, statistically.

With fewer and fewer 999 calls meeting the red call target, we must ensure that people in the community have the tools and skills to respond. It takes as little as 30 minutes to train someone in CPR, and a defibrillator can be used without any training at all. Modern automated external defibrillators, or AEDs, the kind of kit being provided by Welsh charities, are idiot proof. They instruct the user on how to operate the machine and save somebody’s life.

It has been just over three months since Christian Eriksen, the Denmark national football team captain, collapsed during a Euro 2020 match against Finland. And more seasoned footballers might remember Marc-Vivien Foé back in 2003, I think: he played for Manchester City; he sadly didn't survive, but Christian Eriksen did, fortunately. As people around the world watched the remarkable medical team intervene to save Eriksen’s life, it became clear that the football star had suffered a cardiac arrest. Thankfully, the quick-thinking medical team jumped into action and carried out CPR on him and used a defibrillator to save his life. But, unfortunately, not everyone is as lucky as Christian Eriksen, as we saw all those years ago with Marc-Vivien Foé. Maqsood Anwar also, aged 44, died after suffering a suspected heart attack while playing cricket in the Vale of Glamorgan earlier in the summer, and a few weeks later, 31-year-old Alex Evans died after having a cardiac arrest while playing rugby in Neath Port Talbot.

According to the Resuscitation Council, the public needs to be within 200m of a defibrillator. Given their life-saving impact, it is fundamentally important that we have defibrillators installed in as many easily accessible public spaces across Wales as possible. There are currently just over 4,000 external defibrillators in Wales, something which the Welsh Conservatives want to change quickly. But we cannot rely upon charities to provide these vital pieces of life-saving kit—the expense is just too great. Each machine can cost around £1,500, particularly those machines robust enough to be placed in community settings. It is the Government that is failing to provide sufficient emergency cover, so it should be the Government that funds the cost of the training and the kit to provide emergency cardiac care in the community.

According to a Welsh Government report in 2019, over 55 per cent of people surveyed said that they did not know where the nearest defibrillator was. Two years later, they have finally introduced funding for Save a Life Cymru. This funding is helping to develop a programme to educate people on how to help someone suffering a cardiac arrest, and also to help people gain confidence in using a defibrillator. Although this funding and scheme are welcome, we simply need to do more. The people of Wales deserve to have a defibrillator in every community hall, sports ground and even in independent shops, so that we can slash the number of deaths by cardiac arrest in Wales.

I urge Members to support this motion today and send out a clear message that Wales is taking action during Save a Life September. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I have selected the amendment to the motion. I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services to formally move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Amendment 1—Lesley Griffiths

Delete point 4 and replace with new points:

4. Recognises the £2.5 million funding provided by Welsh Government to Save a Life Cymru to improve awareness and access to CPR and defibrillation.

5. Notes the Welsh Government commits to extending this support by £500k this year to further increase the number of defibrillators in community settings across Wales.

Amendment 1 moved.

Formally.

We will be supporting this motion today. This isn't a party political matter, of course. I've worked on joint statements with Labour and Conservative Members in the past on this issue, and what is in front of us today is sensible and asks for basic and practical steps to be taken to save lives across Wales. It's a campaign I've been a part of myself. It's relevant to all of us. 

Whilst the majority of cases of cardiac arrest happen within the home, a significant proportion of them happen outwith the home. And we know how vitally important the availability of defibrillators is to provide an opportunity for someone to survive an event such as this. One amongst us has had this experience relatively recently, but it happens on a daily basis. There are places in particular where we know that it's vitally important to have these machines, because international studies show that one is more likely to suffer a cardiac arrest in transport hubs, in shopping centres, in sports centres, in places such as golf courses and so on. So, it should be the aim for each one of us to ensure that there is genuine support, practical support and financial support from Government to allow that to happen, and there is always room for the Government to do more.

And that's why I don't want to support, and we won't be supporting the Government amendment today. Of course the Government has invested in this area already, and what we have here is an amendment that notes that. But I think we need to do more on a day like this than just noting the steps that have already been taken by Government. What we want is for the Government to accept, yes, there is more that we can do, always.

There is so much more that needs to be looked at than just funding. The question of a register is very important. There is one register, The Circuit—the national defibrillator network—where it is possible to note where all of these machines are across the United Kingdom, and I know that the British Heart Foundation is calling for the UK Government to encourage those who look after their own machines to register them. Awareness raising is always important. How many of us here have been taught by the British Heart Foundation and others how to use defibrillators? I, and my office, have opened the door to hold classes in the past for more people to have that practical information on how to use these machines. So, we do need to do much more to improve awareness amongst the public.

But, as an initial step, let us all support this motion, and make it clear that we, as a Senedd, are united on this question of the importance of these small machines that can make such a big difference to the lives of individuals and families in all parts of Wales. 

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate today. There aren't many days when I walk in and don't think of this subject, because I see my colleague from Blaenau Gwent here, who has spoken eloquently of his personal experience—traumatic experience, I would suggest—and the importance of people having knowledge, when it comes to defibrillators, means that he is here with us. There are some days when he is contributing that maybe I wish he was in the tea room rather then in here—[Laughter.]—but it's great to see him around and walking and enjoying life.

And it is good to see a smile on people's faces when that is said, because the other contributor to this debate in the previous Assembly was Suzy Davies, who led many a debate in here about the need to have, in the curriculum in particular, education around defibrillators and the use of defibrillators in the community, because there's no point in having them if you can't use them and deploy them, and I think we all agree with that point as well. I'm pleased to see that the former Government did change its stance after much lobbying from Suzy Davies to get this important point into the Curriculum and Assessment (Wales) Act 2021, so that there would be space within the curriculum for that education to be provided in colleges and schools the length and breadth of Wales, because, again, we hear the numbers, as Gareth in his opening remarks touched on, and 8,000 people will experience a cardiac arrest in Wales every year.

Cardiac arrests kill more people than lung cancer, breast cancer and AIDS combined—combined. That's worth reflecting on. With lung cancer, breast cancer and AIDS combined, more people die of cardiac arrest here in Wales. But there is a solution: we can make these devices more readily available, and we can make sure that these devices are in every community the length and breadth of Wales. But what's important is that when we make them available they're available for 24/7 use, not just in limited occupations, such as in college settings, for example, where many colleges indicate that they have them, and that's to be welcomed, but it's not much good being in the college if the door's locked and you can't get to it when you need it. And so that's why we need more community activism to try and get more community halls, and sports settings in particular, to make sure they make use of these facilities. And that's why I've been so pleased in my role—and I'm not seeking re-election in May next year, so this isn't a pitch for the election next year; I do declare an interest—that I've had the pleasure of playing a part in raising funds for at least five defibrillators in the ward of Rhoose to make sure that from the football club to the residential setting of Rhoose Point to the village of Llantrithyd, there are now defibrillators available to those communities. And that's where it is really important.

I regret that the Government have chosen to delete the one point in this motion today that actually called on action on behalf of the Government to engage with community groups to make sure money was available on a consistent and sustainable footing to make sure that we can get those numbers up that Gareth touched on. At the moment, we know there are about 4,000 defibrillators across Wales. We most probably need, if we're going to be having meaningful national coverage, double that number, and that's a big ask. But I do believe that the Government have taken a backward step in trying to seek to delete this point in the motion this afternoon, because it is a consensual motion and ultimately looks to achieve that national coverage by calling on the Government to make those national resources available.

I appreciate the Government amendment talks to money that's been made available by the Government to various community groups, but clearly, there's a lot, lot more work to be done. When you look at the education responses the Welsh Conservatives have had back, in particular from local education authorities, only Denbighshire could indicate exactly what the school settings had when it came to defibrillators. The other 11 local authorities out of 12 who responded to the FOI confirmed that there is no centralised database within the education department to indicate where in schools defibrillators might or might not be. Again, that's a gaping hole in our understanding of what we can do.

There's a lot of work to do, but we are making progress in this area. I hope we can find a consensus with this debate today, because as we've seen with the pandemic, regrettably it was one in ten before the pandemic who survived a cardiac arrest here in Wales, and it's now one in 20, so the numbers have gone backwards. That's no-one's fault, because of the pandemic—I accept that—but it emphasises the mountain that we've got to climb and the work we've got to do in communities across the whole of Wales to make sure that we create greater education around the use of defibrillators, and access to defibrillators, importantly. I'll repeat that line again: they need to be readily available 24/7. There's no point in ticking a box saying that defibrillator is in a locked setting that's unavailable for 12 hours of the day, or for the weekend period. Because as Alun had in his experience, he happened to be in a park; at the end of the day, he was lucky that somebody someone went past and could action what was needed to do to bring him back to life. But who knows where that might strike one of those 8,000 people in Wales who would have that cardiac episode.

I call on the Government to do more, as inevitably the opposition does when it comes to debates on a Wednesday afternoon. But I do commend the Government for the work that it did in the last Assembly with Suzy Davies in making sure that there was a space in the education curriculum to allow greater educational learning so people know what to do if they're presented with that. I'm getting looked at by the Presiding Officer now, because the red line has come up, so on that note, I'll close. Thank you. 

Alun Davies. 

I'm grateful to you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm grateful to the Welsh Conservatives as well for bringing this debate to the Senedd at the beginning of this new term, and I'm grateful for the kind words we've just heard.

In terms of where we are, the speech just made by Andrew R.T. Davies is absolutely correct: it is good and we do welcome and we are grateful for the work that Government has completed, and we're eternally grateful for the work of individuals and groups and communities up and down the country who have put in place this life-saving equipment in communities across Wales. But what I will say to the Minister this afternoon is that you cannot rely on charity to deliver an emergency response when somebody is lying between life and death with only minutes to spare. You cannot rely on goodwill or good wishes on a Wednesday afternoon to deliver the treatment that is required. It is only Government that can deliver that. I hope that this afternoon we will reflect on the experience of people—not so much the experience of people like myself who have suffered a cardiac arrest and survived, but the families who have lost loved ones because they didn't survive, and we know Members here in this Chamber have been affected by that in that way.

We know that people who appear to be in the best of health have suffered a cardiac arrest with no warning, no symptoms, no chance and no opportunity to seek medical help and medical support. It was terrifying to watch what happened to Christian Eriksen in the summer. What happened to him was exactly what was described as happened to me—no warning, no knowledge, in the middle of some physical activity you anticipated, you expected, to survive. He fell down with a cardiac arrest in exactly the same way as I did. It is only the support and help of people in our community that will enable the paramedics, the cardiologists and the surgeons to use their skills, to use their knowledge, to use their experience to ensure that people can then go on and live their lives. Certainly, the treatment that I received here in Cardiff has enabled me to carry on living my life. And I apologise if, Andrew R.T. Davies, I sometimes make you uncomfortable, but then again, you wouldn't expect anything different.

Let me say this: we have a responsibility in this place to do more than to make speeches, and to do more than extend goodwill and good wishes to people across this country. We have a responsibility to put in place the structures that will enable people to survive these experiences. I hope that Members across the Chamber will support the private Member legislation that I will be putting forward again this week. Members were kind enough to support the legislative proposal I made in the last Senedd to provide a legal, statutory responsibility on Welsh Ministers to ensure that defibrillators are available in communities up and down the country, and that people have the training available to use those defibrillators and to provide CPR until a defibrillator can be used. Because it is not just the location of the defibrillator that matters, it is the maintenance of that defibrillator, it is ensuring that that defibrillator is available for use when it is needed. I had a cardiac arrest at 7 o'clock on a Friday evening. You cannot rely on people to have a cardiac arrest in working hours in a convenient location. We already stipulate and demand health and safety legislation throughout our society, from fire safety through to all other means of maintaining and ensuring that life is protected. This is something that we should be mandating as well.

I'll say this in closing. I'm grateful to the Conservatives, as I've already said, and grateful for the kind words, and I don't wish to spend too much time simply talking about my own experience, but words matter. Words certainly do matter, but what matters more than words is action. We will have the opportunity in this Senedd to legislate to provide for a statutory framework to enable people across Wales to know that they have this life-saving equipment available in communities up and down the country. We will build on the work that Suzy Davies led in the last Senedd to ensure that the training is available. And we can't simply rely on schools to deliver that; we have to go to workplaces and communities to deliver that as well. Then we have to ensure that there is a chain of survival in place that enables—

Can the Member conclude now, please?

—us not just to save life, but to actually invest in the future of life as well. I hope that Members across the Chamber will come together and vote for this this afternoon, and will support the private legislation that I hope to put forward in this Senedd, to make all our hopes a reality. Thank you.

There are 2,000 out-of-hospital cardiac arrests in Wales annually. Immediate CPR and defibrillation can more than double the chances of survival. We are all in agreement that a network of defibrillators will save lives. I hope that you will join with me, though, in condemning whoever was responsible very recently for attacking and damaging a community-funded, newly installed automated external defibrillator in West Shore, Llandudno. The utter mindlessness of this defacement goes to show that awareness of the importance of AEDs and CPR needs to improve vastly.

Of course, I endorse the comments that have been made, and the huge debt of gratitude that we owe to our former colleague Suzy Davies, who campaigned tirelessly to see Wales join England and Scotland in making the teaching of life-saving skills a requirement of the new school curriculum. Teaching life-saving skills in schools will help address the fact that as many as three quarters of people surveyed by the British Heart Foundation would not feel confident enough to act if they saw somebody having a cardiac arrest. However, whilst we expect the guidance on the health and well-being area of learning and experience to be amended to state that learners should learn life-saving skills and first aid, why not, Minister, go a step further by stating that defibrillator training is mandatory too?

Throughout the pandemic, I have been taking steps to help, educate and protect the public. I have backed the Awyr Las Keep the Beats campaign, which encourages residents of all ages to practice CPR in the safety of their own home by using common household items such as balls, cushions and teddy bears. My constituency team have undertaken a CPR and defibrillator training course with St John Ambulance, so I thank St John Ambulance for that, ensuring that a full and proper knowledge of life-saving procedures is rooted right in my constituency in the beating heart of Llandudno. I would certainly encourage other Members to do the same with their office teams, so that we boost the number of people able and ready to respond in the event of an OHCA.

British Heart Foundation Cymru have estimated that there could be hundreds or even thousands of defibrillators in communities across Wales that never get used, because emergency services simply don't know where they are. To address this, the BHF is launching 'The Circuit', with the Association of Ambulance Chief Executives, St John Ambulance and Resuscitation Council UK. Bearing in mind that you are committed to a further £500,000 to further increase the number of defibrillators, I wonder if you could make it a condition of this funding that AEDs be registered on this circuit.

NHS Wales and Welsh Government have previously acknowledged that deprived communities are more likely to suffer from cardiovascular diseases and OHCA, and are less likely to survive than people from more affluent areas. The out-of-hospital cardiac arrest plan of June 2017 stated that work should be undertaken to ensure the public are not disadvantaged due to geography or social challenges. Many of us travel the length of Wales on a weekly basis, and I can safely say that I have only spotted one AED, beside the A5 in Padog, Ysbyty Ifan. That is clear evidence of geographic disadvantage. Communities with life-saving equipment should have bold signs informing the public of their presence. They should be as important as brown tourist signs. So, will you liaise with the Deputy Minister for Climate Change to deliver AED road signs?

Alongside introducing signs, I support the calls for grant funding to be made available to enable community halls, sports grounds and independent shops to buy and install a defibrillator. Personally, I would go a step further and propose that they be made available at each school in Wales. That, Minister, could be one of the major shocks that Wales needs to move a step closer to becoming a true life-saving nation. Thank you. Diolch. 

I would hope that there will be no disagreement today across the Chamber on this very important issue, and I will not repeat very valid points made. I echo Janet's calls in terms of that register. I think that is crucial. When you Google at the moment some areas in South Wales Central, I know of some defibs that exist but you cannot find them anywhere. Making sure that everybody is aware of those locations, especially on a local level, is crucially important, because you might rush to Google, but if you can't even find it there, I then think we have a major problem, especially when the emergency services aren't either aware. 

I just wanted to raise as part of this debate today one thing that was raised with me last week in relation to current defibrillators within South Wales Central, and the issue that some are attached to banks and that those branches have now closed. Similarly, some are attached to some offices in town centres, also which have been closed either during COVID as people work from home, or have now closed permanently as people make the shift to work from home. Therefore, if I may return to the point in terms of registering these so that they can be maintained and so on, because the worst thing that could happen is for someone to reach that defib and that it's not working either. So, it's one thing to invest, but we must have that long-term plan, because often the knowledge about these defibs is in someone's head—someone who's passionate, who's been fundraising in the community around this—and if we are to maintain that network, it is about ensuring that they are maintained, that they're useable, also that the visibility is there. So, it's really a plea for us all to work together to ensure that these are in every community, that they should be in every sports club and so on, and I think Janet's suggestion in terms of each school is also a very valid point, although those can, of course, be very far from communities and not be as accessible as some of our town centres. Therefore, I hope we could all work together to ensure that we do address this so that we are able to save as many lives as possible in this act. Thank you.

I'm grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this debate. The statistics are clearly worrying, and the survival rates of out-of-hospital cardiac arrest should be enough, on their own, to get us to act. There are a few challenges, however. Firstly, I do not believe that our nation is working quickly enough to build more capacity into our network of defibrillators. During the summer recess, I visited a community pharmacy and was shocked at the slow progress in rolling out a sufficient supply of defibrillators throughout the brilliant local pharmacies. In supporting the call for funding to be made available to venues throughout Wales to provide a network of defibrillators, I want the Government to commit to ensuring that every community pharmacy has access to support, as a key and essential part of our health service. Community pharmacies contain a number of staff with the skills to respond to the needs of the local population. Why not make better use of community pharmacies, which are a key part of our towns and villages, and professionals who come into contact with many people on a daily basis? Could the Minister today confirm how many community pharmacies have defibrillators today, compared to two or three years ago?

Secondly, according to the British Heart Foundation, less than 5 per cent of out-of-hospital cardiac arrests receive bystander defibrillation, and tens of thousands of defibrillators are currently not known by the ambulance services because they are not registered. Clearly, knowing a defibrillator's location can be the difference between life and death. Whilst we need to address the overall number of defibrillators, we also need to ensure that every unit is registered to allow the emergency services to locate them, and perhaps one way to find a defibrillator once it is activated by a member of the public would be similar to the AA phones on motorways, which give the exact location. Thirdly, the Resuscitation Council UK makes a strong case for an improvement in information and advice to people to build confidence amongst the population to use a defibrillator in an emergency. This is true in the delivery of CPR in the absence of a defibrillator too, and more challenging because of the direct action required on the part of the individual to administer the routine. I would also ask the Government to review its own out-of-hospital cardiac arrest plan, published in 2017. It clearly states that one of the plan's key outcomes is that defibrillators are,

'readily available and accessible to the public.'

It also sets out the goal that the public,

'are aware defibrillators are easy to use and can do no harm'.

That's written in this. I would ask the Minister, if we had any benchmarking that applied to the 2017 plan being written, and where we are now in securing the improvement to have the ability and accessibility. The plan is sensible and the intentions are clear, but the chapter on the implementation is weak on explaining what success would look like. It says,

'Whilst considerable work on some elements of the pathway have been taken forward, focus and pace is now required to develop the detail across the whole plan and embed its implementation across Wales.'

A report published by the Welsh Government in 2018 looked at public knowledge, attitude and behaviour towards CPR and defibrillators. The survey concluded that the proportion trained to use a defibrillator was much lower than in CPR, with only 23 per cent of all respondents reporting that they had undergone training. Although over 50 per cent of people said that they would like to receive some training. In the use of defibrillators, the level of confidence was lower than for those administering CPR, with only 38 per cent of respondents saying that they would be confident. Confidence levels were higher among those trained in CPR or in how to use defibrillators at 55 per cent and 88 per cent respectively.

Worryingly, however, was the proportion of respondents—that's 55 per cent—who did not know the location of their nearest defibrillator. Even among those who were defibrillator trained, 35 per cent reported that they did not know the location of their nearest defibrillators—

Will the Member conclude now, please?

These figures might have changed in the past three years, although they show the scale of some of the challenge, even if we had the right number of defibrillators in place. I hope that the Minister will back the motion this afternoon. Thank you. 

The leader of the opposition spoke about consensus at the start of this debate and I agree with him: we do need to find consensus. You won't hear me say this often, but I thank the Welsh Conservatives for bringing this debate forward today—[Laughter.] 

But, Deputy Llywydd, I recently met with Mark King from the Oliver King Foundation, who are campaigning for a life-saving defibrillator in every single school across the United Kingdom. The foundation was set up in January of 2012, following the tragic death of Mark's son, 12-year-old Oliver King. Oliver died from sudden arrhythmic death syndrome—a hidden heart condition that kills 12 young people every week. Now, like many others across the Chamber, my meeting with Mark and the foundation got me thinking about the schools in my own community, so my office contacted the schools in Alun and Deeside, and they found that 23 schools did have a defibrillator, but 10 did not. Many of those 10 got back in touch with my office to ask how can they go about getting one and can they get one funded and they wanted advice on how to do that. So, I will be putting them in touch with the Oliver King Foundation, but I would also ask that the Welsh Government and local government colleagues across Wales consider mapping this out properly and help schools to get the life-saving equipment they so much need.

Furthermore, Deputy Llywydd, friends of mine recently made me aware of an elderly family member who fell ill in the early hours of the morning. Upon phoning 999, they were instructed to go to the nearest available defibrillator at the local supermarket, but unfortunately, the supermarket was shut and the defibrillator was locked inside. My friend was unable to access that. As we've heard from Members across all benches here today, it is vital that defibrillators are in a location that means that they're accessible 24 hours a day. Now, I have written to Morrisons in Connah's Quay in my own constituency asking them to facilitate this sensible move, and I would like other stores across my constituency and across Wales and the UK to do the same. So, I would urge the Minister and the Welsh Government to pursue this issue across Wales.

To sum up, Deputy Presiding Officer, because I am very grateful to you for letting me speak in this debate today, we all understand the difference between a defibrillator and what that can make in terms of life-saving or not, but training in using them and basic CPR training is also key to saving lives. And as we've heard this afternoon, nobody knows that better than my good friend Alun Davies, so I would like to pay tribute to those people who helped my good friend Alun Davies in his time of need, because without them, he wouldn't be here with me, disagreeing with the Welsh Conservatives, as we so much like to do. But not today: we do agree, and thank you so much for the debate. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. I'd like to thank Members for the thoughtful contributions that they have made today, and in particular, thank Darren Millar and Gareth for introducing this really important issue. Genuinely, there is consensus within this Chamber that this is a really important matter, and certainly there is cross-party support for this. I think that we are all united in the need to do more in this space.

As a Government, we share a commitment to improving people's chances of surviving an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest. My predecessor, as some of you have noted, launched the out-of-hospital cardiac arrest plan for Wales in 2017, with the aim of tackling the very poor outcomes that we have in Wales associated with people having cardiac arrests in the community. Recently, as Gareth mentioned, Members will recall that I reaffirmed aspects of that plan by allocating additional funding, about which I will just say more in a bit.  

As we have already heard from so many Members today, the fact is that a patient's chance of surviving an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest decreases by an estimated 10 per cent with every passing minute. We've heard lots of examples of that, and we have our very own example here, Alun, who—. I was very shocked when I saw the figure—that actually only 3 per cent would have managed that kind of situation and come through it. So, we are all really so grateful to have you here, Alun, and it really does underline the importance of the need for one of these defibrillators to be accessible.

So, survival rates are low, but there is a potential for many more lives to be saved, as has been demonstrated by the number of countries that have been taking active steps to improve each stage of what they call this chain of survival. This is the reason why we have got this plan, and that concerted action is being taken.

So, I fully support calls for more defibrillators, but I think that it's important for people to understand that making progress in this area is complex, and requires a number of things to be brought together—many of which have been touched upon by Members in this Chamber today.

I'm grateful to hear the Minister say that she would be pleased to see more defibrillators in Wales. You are the Minister. Will you set a target for the number of defibrillators that might be in existence across Wales by the end of this five-year Assembly term? At least then, if we have got a target, we have got something to aim for, rather than the warm words—and the sincere words, I take it—that the Minister has put on the record today. We need to know what sort of numbers we are talking about here. 

Well, I'm certainly happy to take a look at that. I think that the fact that we have put considerable additional resources in over this summer, I hope, will go some way towards reaching a target. I'm happy to look at a target because I do think that it's important that people keep our feet to the fire in this area. So, I am happy to look at that.

What's interesting is that, actually, there are areas where we are actually further ahead than they are in England, for example. I have been very taken by the campaign that Jack Sargeant mentioned, by Mark King, for example, who has been an incredible campaigner, trying to get people to introduce these into every school in the United Kingdom, in memory of his son, Oliver, who so tragically died. We have, actually, already offered every secondary school in Wales a defibrillator. That's already happened in Wales, so we are further ahead in some areas.

As I say, it's a complicated area. We have got to think about the skills issue, which so many people have touched upon and as Suzy Davies advocated so readily when she was here. On top of that, I think that it's really important that we understand that they have got to be maintained; otherwise, they are simply not worth having. So, I would join with Janet Finch-Saunders in condemning those who vandalise this life-saving equipment, wherever it happens in Wales. That's why we have established the Save a Life Cymru partnership, in January 2019, to bring together all of these different pieces of the jigsaw, in relation to encouraging public participation in taking action when faced with an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest. And Save a Life Cymru works with a very large number of organisations in this space, as well as mounting a comprehensive 'touch someone's life' communications campaign to encourage people to come forward, as so many of you have talked about. Some of you are making that active offer in your own communities.

The number of defibrillators is growing all the time. There are currently 5,423 public-access defibrillators that have been registered with the Welsh ambulance service trust and the circuit, and I'd just like to say something about that circuit, because Janet Finch-Saunders suggested perhaps that we should make this funding conditional on the fact that they need to register. So, you’re absolutely right—there's probably a lot more, but, if people don’t know where they are, that's not much good. So, I’m very happy to make that funding conditional on the fact that they have to register their whereabouts with the circuit.

We need to have designated carers for defibrillators—people who can look after them to ensure that they work properly. At the moment, only a little under 50 per cent of defibrillators have been registered and have maintenance people in place to ensure that the batteries and pads are regularly tested. So, it is a complex scenario—there's no point simply installing these machines. Recently, I announced £2.5 million in addition for that partnership with Save a Life Wales to raise awareness of CPR and defibrillators and to improve the use of these techniques. Today, I’d like to announce that we will take a step further and allocate £0.5 million in addition to secure more defibrillators for communities across Wales, and that is why we have put forward the amendment to the motion today.

I have asked my officials to work with Save a Life Wales on arrangements for the use of this funding. On 16 October we celebrate Heart Regeneration Day and Save a Life Wales, along with its partners across Wales, will encourage each and every one of us to participate in events. There will also be the Shoctober event from the Welsh ambulance service, and that will be promoted throughout October. This will raise awareness of the appropriate use of the 999 service and of hands-only CPR for primary school pupils. So, we will be continuing with that legacy that was so important to Suzy Davies.

I know that the public in Wales wants to play its part. Research has shown that public attitudes are positive and that people are eager to have training opportunities, but confidence in performing CPR or using defibrillators in Wales is low, and this is something we can change. So, I do hope that these efforts that I have outlined today will start to tackle issues such as public confidence, and that will improve outcomes for those suffering cardiac arrest out of hospital.

I would like to pay tribute to all of the organisations, including third sector organisations, who work particularly hard across Wales to improve the use of CPR and defibrillators. Every second counts when one suffers cardiac arrest, and each and every one of us can help to raise awareness of the importance of CPR and defibrillators. Thank you.

I call on Samuel Kurtz to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to all Members, and the Minister, that have contributed to this afternoon's debate. After the horrendous scenes witnessed on the international television during last June's Denmark versus Finland match during the Euros, I, like so many others, was moved to work with Members from across the Chamber to champion the need for universal defibrillator access, especially on our sports fields, in our community halls, and along our high streets, and I thank all those Members who signed my statement of opinion before recess on this matter.

And whilst I'm incredibly pleased to see that colleagues of all colours wish to passionately debate this motion, during the time since we've started this session this afternoon until the close of business later today, it is estimated that 14 individuals will have suffered from an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest in the United Kingdom. For every minute that goes by without the application of CPR and defibrillation, their chance of survival will reduce by up to 10 per cent. That's why this afternoon's motion is so very important. Here on these benches, the Welsh Conservatives have worked with the Government to ensure that CPR is taught in schools and communities right across Wales. And I echo the warm words of Members here who've championed the work of former Member Suzy Davies on this. However, now marks the perfect opportunity for the Welsh Government to be ambitious, to build upon the success and take a further step. As we've heard this afternoon, it's simply this: the closer an individual is to a defibrillator, the greater their chance of survival becomes.

Over the last few years, we've seen communities across Wales step up to the plate by fundraising and organising the instalment of publicly accessed defibrillators. The Member for the Vale of Clwyd rightly thanked charities for the role they have played in distributing life-saving kit to communities in his constituency, and, as the Member from Blaenau Gwent rightly pointed out, this shouldn't fall on the shoulders of charities alone. Welsh Government must step up and offer the necessary support, and, while the £0.5 million of extra funding is welcomed, Minister, you highlight the complexities of bringing stakeholders together; I would argue that it is the role of Welsh Government to play in bringing those stakeholders together to bring about the necessary change. And as the Member for the Vale of Clwyd rightly pointed out, quick access to a defib will take pressure off the Welsh ambulance service, who say there are 4,100 publicly accessible defibrillators spread across the country. However, the British Heart Foundation are reporting that there are likely to be hundreds or even thousands of life-saving defibrillators in communities across Wales that have yet to be registered with the ambulance service. To put it simply, if the Welsh ambulance service don't know they exist, then nor do the general public—a point raised eloquently by the Members for Ynys Môn, Aberconwy, and South Wales Central earlier on—and the statistics reflect this.

It is estimated that publicly accessed defibrillators are used in less than 10 per cent of out-of-hospital cardiac arrests. And we've heard today the story of the Member from Blaenau Gwent—and not to inflate his ego any further, we are very grateful to ensure that he is still here with us, contributing to Welsh politics. But he is absolutely right to raise the point that it's not the stories of those who survive we should listen to, but the harrowing stories of those who have not survived, including the rugby player Alex Evans, the cricketer Maqsood Anwar, who both sadly lost their lives earlier this year due to not having access to a defibrillator. And I'm sure all of us in our constituencies have heard of other stories of those who have sadly lost their lives, and that's why I believe there is such cross-party consensus here on this topic today.

And we've heard clearly of the situation in Wales and repeatedly that this isn't about politics, as the Member from Ynys Môn rightly pointed out; this is about genuine change that can save lives. And I know politicians are often bandied around as not having much common sense, but it seems to me that common sense should prevail in this instance, that this should be a matter that the Welsh Government take forward with gusto to ensure that this life-saving equipment is available to all who may, sadly, need it at any one time. Therefore, I hope that Members can support our motion today to bring about this necessary change. Diolch yn fawr.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Object. I will defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.