5. Statement by the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution: Codes of Welsh law: A programme to improve the accessibility of Welsh law

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 4:26 pm on 21 September 2021.

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Photo of Mick Antoniw Mick Antoniw Labour 4:26, 21 September 2021

Can I thank the Member, as ever, for a very far-reaching and wide-ranging series of comments and questions? I suspect if I were to answer in detail all of them, I would attract the ire of the Llywydd, but I will do my best within the time that is available to me. [Laughter.]

Can I just say first of all on the issue of planning—and, of course you are right, it is an incredibly complicated area—the work is under way on it? I understand that the English version and the Welsh version will both individually amount to something like 400 pages of legislation, and everything that will follow on from that. So, the assistance of the Law Commission within that process is extremely valuable. 

I think we also have to distinguish between the issue of consolidation as opposed to reform, and you're absolutely right about the areas, the issues and the matters that get raised with us as Senedd Members in that capacity with regard to reform. But it's also important to understand that the consolidation process is one where, effectively, we do not want to see—. I mean, we do not want to effectively tie down the entirety of the capacity of the Senedd in terms of legislation and scrutiny to actually reform the entirety of planning law, unless that becomes a specific part of the legislative programme, but rather to take what there is and to put it together and to consolidate it into a simple-as-possible and consistent piece of legislation that can then be codified under a planning head, so that citizens within Wales will know where the law is in one place, and it would be available equally in Welsh and in English.

So, that's an important different process to the one where there would be reform and all the arguments over the type of reform, and so on. If we were to go down that particular road, I think consolidation as a project would actually grind to a halt over the years. But what we do look at is to look at where there are opportunities in legislation that may be forthcoming. One of them I think I mentioned when I was giving evidence to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, which does such important work in this area, was that as a result of UK Government legislation, there are areas where there will be divergence in law almost certainly. We may well want to bring our own electoral reform legislation, and that then provides opportunities for reform and for effectively consolidating into one place, and in Welsh and in English. So, we can fulfil some of those demands in other particular ways. So, it's very important to have a focus on that as part of the process that's under way.

Of course, you've identified the issues of divergence. They're matters that we've discussed in this Chamber on a number of occasions, that, of course, the UK Parliament passes laws for England and Wales that often only apply to England, and in Wales we pass laws for Wales that only apply to Wales. We don't pass laws for Wales and England equally in that particular format. So, you are right that there are those anomalies, I think, in the process. They are partly political in the perception of the role of the UK Parliament in legislating and how it legislates. Those are ongoing and they emerge regularly, I think, in all the different items of legislation that come from UK Government that we have to consider and where we have to consider legislative consent memoranda. They are dealt with frequently on an individual ministerial portfolio basis, but those issues do regularly arise. It may be that if we make progress on the inter-governmental reform programme that is under way, there may be opportunities to set further principles down the road in terms of the way legislation is developed and operated and the way in which conflicts and disagreements are actually resolved.

You referred to the importance of accessibility, and I agree with you entirely that, firstly, the steps that we are taking are fundamentally important in terms of accessibility. If you don't know what the law is, where it is, whether you're a citizen, whether you're a practitioner or whatever, that accessibility doesn't exist. And it is fair to say that when you look at a lot of UK Government legislation, or laws—. If you take education for example and you look there to find out where the law is, you would spend quite some time actually trying to find out where it is, what is still in force, what is still relevant, and so on. The attraction to us in terms of consolidation and codification is this: when we have consolidated law in an important area, we then have the opportunity when we make amendments not to introduce a new law, a second law and a third law and all these subsequent bits of secondary legislation, but what we do is we amend the law that we have. So, we still have a single piece of legislation in one place, but that is what we change, and that is the objective in a whole range of areas. Historic environment, I think, is an important area. There is a lot of interest in it. It does affect many aspects of Welsh cultural and historic life. So, I think that was an important one that develops. But as I mentioned in my response to Mark Isherwood, of course there are other areas that we are looking at that are ripe to do at the appropriate time. 

In terms of the other aspect of accessibility, which I think we're in complete agreement on, that is this: if people can't access the law themselves and be represented in the law, then that is a significant restriction on the accessibility of the law of the citizens. I've said in the past I would like to see us have our own Welsh legal aid system. One of the recommendations of the Thomas commission was for that to take place, or for the process to begin in that respect. I feel that if people cannot have representation then they do not have genuine access and they are disempowered within the legal system. When I went to visit the Cardiff civil justice courts the other week and met with the judges and some of the staff there, when you hear that in the family courts there are those whose accessibility on issues of major importance to their family, to their children and so on, was accessing the courts by means of a mobile phone, then that clearly is not something that is satisfactory. And, of course, a number of these are issues that I had intended to discuss with the Lord Chancellor and Minister for justice, Robert Buckland, last week. There has been a reshuffle. There is a change there. So, that conversation and those discussions hopefully will continue, but obviously with a new Lord Chancellor. I do hope I've answered all the points that you raised.