5. What discussions has the Minister held with the police and crime commissioners, the police, and criminal justice agencies about racism in the justice system? OQ56864

I meet regularly with police and crime commissioners and chief constables to discuss a range of important issues, including race equality. Our consultation on the race equality action plan closed on 15 July. Hate crime and justice is a key priority in the plan.

Diolch yn fawr, Gweinidog. I want to mention three reports that you'll be well versed with in my suppementary question. Firstly, the report by Dr Robert Jones of the Wales Governance Centre. In that report it says that in 2017, the level of racial disproportionality in the prison population was higher amongst Welsh prisoners than English prisoners. Shamefully, we here in Wales have the highest level of incarceration in western Europe, but also black people are six times more likely to be in Welsh prisons than white people. Then the Lammy report, that pointed out that the number of the causes of over-representation of BAME people within the criminal justice system lie within the devolved competencies of the Senedd. And finally, the third report, the Commission on Justice in Wales report, and that noted that continued monitoring and reform is needed in areas such as school exclusions, adverse childhood experiences and employment opportunities. So, what actions is the Welsh Government taking to ensure that the recommendations within these reports are implemented to address the over-representation of BAME people within the criminal justice system? Diolch yn fawr. 

Diolch yn fawr. I'm really glad that you mentioned those three reports. I met with Dr Robert Jones from the Wales Governance Centre when he published that report back in 2019. It did give us a very clear picture of the criminal justice system in Wales, and highlighted that trend, as you've identified, of over-representation of black, Asian and minority ethnic people within the criminal justice system. 

In terms of actions to be taken as far as that's concerned, the race equality action plan provided us with an opportunity, and, in fact, as a result of pre-consultation, advancing race equality within the criminal justice system is one of the five top priorities in the race equality action plan. So, we've engaged; we have a group that's working on that, with the deputy police and crime commissioner of south Wales, Emma Wools, Chris Jennings, executive director for HM Prison and Probation Service and chief constable Pam Kelly all engaged. It's crucial that that is part of the plan, which is out for consultation, in terms of taking action. 

I think also you were mentioning David Lammy's report. And this is also mentioned, of course, in terms of the commission on justice, the John Thomas report. I look to my colleague the Counsel General; these are all being considered in the justice sub-committee of the Cabinet. I'd just draw attention to the fact that the David Lammy report particularly was looking at, for example, reforms of the youth justice system, but diversifying the workforce as well. 

So, I think we're in a better place now that we're looking at those three reports that you've identified to take action. The race equality action plan and the Thomas commission, and our response to it, are crucial.  

Tackling racism is and must be everyone's business. There are sectors in Wales that are supported financially by the Welsh Government, but are not public bodies and will therefore not be required to adhere to the public sector equality duty. Will the Minister consider legislation to mandate this where bodies are receiving financial support from Government? 

Thank you very much, Altaf Hussain. The public sector equality duty, for which the regulator is the Equality and Human Rights Commission, is a duty in law. We're actually just revising it; we're considering it now. We've enacted the socioeconomic duty as well. In many cases, we have legislation that should be tackling this discrimination, particularly in relation to access to public services, but we now need to respond and deliver on the race equality action plan. 

Just to follow on from my colleague Rhys ab Owen's question, I also am very interested in the issue of the criminal justice system and the over-representation of those with protected characteristics, particularly black and minority ethnic prisoners. Twenty-six per cent of the prison population in England and Wales are from a minority ethnic group. That's compared to 16 per cent of the entire population across England and Wales. I'm sure we would all agree that this is not acceptable, and there is no doubt that our criminal justice system is not working for those people from black, Asian and minority ethnic backgrounds. I'd just like to follow up Rhys ab Owen's request around data and information to ask how we can get more efficient data around Welsh prisons, particularly the prison population who are from protected characteristic backgrounds, including those from Welsh-speaking backgrounds as well, and from LGBTQI backgrounds. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Diolch yn fawr, Jane Dodds, and you've given us shocking statistics. I won't repeat them, but they are in Dr Robert Jones's report. I think I want to just make one quick point, which actually does reflect on Rhys ab Owen's question as well, that we have a major issue in the justice system about a lack of specific data for Wales, and you commented on that in terms of other protected characteristics. This was focusing particularly on black, Asian and minority ethnic people in terms of the Wales Governance Centre, but we need to look at this from a wider perspective. I have made this point regularly with the Ministry of Justice, and I raised it in a meeting in July with the then justice Minister, Alex Chalk. He indicated that, actually, there was progress being made on this issue, because in fact Robert Jones was stymied by this, in terms of his research, having to go to an FOI to get the data. We need that data. We need more power. And we need to address the ways in which the criminal justice system is failing so many with protected characteristics and with other characteristics, including socioeconomic.