Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 4:10 pm on 28 September 2021.
Thank you for the questions. I'll deal with your last point first, and that is that I'm afraid that it does matter what happens over the next month with the spending review, about our ability to take forward the commitments we've made. Our commitment to having a forward-looking science strategy and to maximise our opportunities in research, development and innovation is still there. But we need to understand the tools that we'll have to do that. So, it's partly about the levelling-up fund; it's also about what's going to happen in the spending review and the budget. There'll be scrutiny for committees when our own budget is presented, and I'm sure the finance Minister has been listening with interest for yet more bids for money, which is always par for the course when you're a Minister in the Government. But the serious point is that we have a commitment that we will look to meet, as far as we can, with the resources we have, and we'll set out how we're able to do that when we have a clearer picture about resources.
At this point in time, we are heading on a path of having less say over less money. That's not a great place to be, and I don't understand how anyone elected to this place could celebrate the fact that there is a deliberate approach to take away powers and resources from this institution. If people want to have a different approach from the Welsh Government, well, that's what people decide when we have elections. We've had elections with manifestos, people have voted, we have an agenda that we want to get on with, because that's the responsibility the people of Wales have chosen to give us. I can't assess the new funds. I'm committed to assessing the new funds when we're in a position to do so, but, as the Conservative spokesperson acknowledged, none of the new funds have been allocated yet, even in the trial phase. So, we can't even assess the impact of the trial phase, because the decisions haven't been made, let alone any spending decisions being made. When we do have a framework, when we do have more decisions about what that means, we will meet the commitment that we've made to provide an assessment of what we think that will do, as well as what then does happen when choices are made about that broader spend.
I think there is still a point of opportunity, as I said, for the new Secretary of State, and that partly comes back to the points you were making about what do we understand about the implementation, the design and the plan such as it is. The reality is there isn't one. The key points that were made were that decisions would be made by UK Ministers. There were decisions made about not listening to and not working with the Welsh Government, in a way that was pretty staggering, in ignoring the opportunity to work with us in way that could and should be constructive. After all, because of the risks that are being run, who on earth wants to be responsible for making choices that could see the apprenticeship programme being reduced as a direct result of the choices made in a ministerial office in Whitehall? I don't believe that's what Conservative Members in this place or any other would be proud to stand up and say that they have delivered. But the fact that there isn't really a plan, not just for Wales but for the UK—. So, if you were talking with English representatives, they would tell you that they don't understand how this is going to work, because there isn't a plan at present. The opportunity for Michael Gove is to work with us on what a UK framework could look like, in exactly the same way where you've had frameworks across the European Union in the past, but to be really clear about choices being made here in Wales over what we do with the money and being clear about the sums of money that are available, so Ministers here can still be properly held to account for choices that we should be making with the powers that the Welsh public expect us to have and to exercise.
In the letter, in my request to meet Michael Gove—I should say, perhaps, to balance up some of the criticism of the UK Government and Conservative Ministers, that I'm not Michael Gove's biggest fan, and I probably wouldn't go out dancing with him, but when it comes to the way that he has operated between the UK Government and devolved Governments in the pandemic, he's had union responsibilities that he retains, and I hope that means that, perhaps more than other Ministers in the UK Government, he understands the realities of working with devolved Governments, and, actually, that when you work with devolved Governments, you'll get more done more quickly. I should say that, in meetings that he has run, they have always been professionally run and conducted. I would hope that a can-do approach is one that he will take, to want to get things done—for his own objectives, I understand, as well—but, equally, to do so in a way that, from my point of view, would strengthen the case for the union and make sure that we undertake our responsibilities and are properly held to account where we should be, within this national Parliament.