Questions Without Notice from the Party Leaders

1. Questions to the First Minister – in the Senedd at 1:43 pm on 5 October 2021.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:43, 5 October 2021

(Translated)

Questions now from the party leaders. On behalf of the Conservatives, Paul Davies. 

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, in 2019, the Welsh Government declared a climate emergency. Since that declaration, can you name one significant measure that you've introduced as a Government to combat climate change? 

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour

Well, I can name any number of them for the Member, but, if he'd like just one, then I will mention the retrofit programme of housing in Wales. One of the major contributors to climate change is the fact that we have an old housing stock, which is inefficient in the way that it uses heating, and the major programme of retrofit that the Welsh Government has announced helps us to tackle one of the main things that we can do to address the climate emergency. 

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative

Well, First Minister, you were doing some of that before then, anyway, and the reality is that not enough has been done since that declaration to seriously address climate change in Wales. Progress to date has not been fast enough to ensure that Wales will have net-zero carbon emissions by 2050. And let me remind you that a report by the committee on climate change told us that Wales was not on track for its previous 80 per cent target, let alone net zero. There are towns and cities in Wales that have reported illegal and dangerous levels of air pollution in recent years, and air pollution is thought to contribute to over 2,000 premature deaths. But we're yet to see a clean air Act, despite it being one of your own leadership manifesto commitments back in 2018. And, on top of that, one of your own Ministers has admitted we're way behind where we need to be on tree planting targets, with only 80 hectares of new woodland planted in 2019-20—the lowest number for a decade. 

And flooding continues to have an enormous impact on our communities. The Rhondda Fawr village of Pentre was hit by flooding on five separate occasions in 2020, for example, and today it's been reported that fire services in south, mid and west Wales have been inundated with flood calls. So, First Minister, can you name one flood-risk community in Wales that is now safer because of Welsh Government intervention since your declaration, and can you tell us how the Welsh Government is prioritising climate change, given that communities are still facing the devastating impact of flooding and given that your Government has failed to reach any significant targets to address climate change since you declared a climate emergency?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:45, 5 October 2021

Well, the Member is very keen in wanting a one-example answer, so Pontarddulais is my answer to his second question. I was very pleased to be there at the opening of the Pontarddulais flood defence scheme, a scheme that will indeed do everything that he asked.

More generally, look, if we are sensible about these things, then he's right, there's far more that we have to do in order to tackle the climate emergency, and that means that there are some difficult decisions that we will all have to face. Building an M4 relief road, for example, would hardly have contributed to what this country has to do to tackle climate change. Last week, I was being asked by members of that party why we were investigating further actions that were needed to tackle nitrogen oxide concentrations along motorways. These things are all difficult. What you can't do is to say to the Government, 'You must do more of this,' but every time the Government tries to do something about it—nitrate vulnerable zones in the agriculture industry, for example—every time—[Interruption.] 'Shameful,' I hear the Member call. I've just been asked a question about climate change and pollution, and yet your party refuses to take action to deal with it. I'm simply making the point to the Member that the points he makes about needing to do more and to do it faster—I agree with him. What that means is there is a responsibility on every member of this Chamber that, when practical actions are taken, you can't try to say, 'Ah, but you can't do that.'

Photo of Paul Davies Paul Davies Conservative 1:47, 5 October 2021

Oh, come on, First Minister, if motorists trapped on a gridlocked M4 are the most environmentally friendly policy the Welsh Government's got, then we are in serious trouble, aren't we? Now, First Minister, not only is climate change affecting our communities and people, but it's also affecting our natural world and wildlife too. The UN Convention on Biological Diversity COP15 will take place next week to agree a new global biodiversity framework, and, by signing the Edinburgh declaration, the Welsh Government has at least recognised the severe threat that biodiversity loss poses to our livelihoods and communities. However, there's an urgent need to tackle this crisis too. Wales is falling behind the rest of the UK when it comes to marine protected area designation, Wales is not yet meeting the four long-term aims of sustainable management of natural resources, and the 2019 RSPB 'State of Nature Report' showed that more than 30 per cent of species have decreased in distribution since the 1970s— species like red squirrels and water voles, which were once widespread in Wales and are now restricted to a few sites and are under real threat of extinction.

So, First Minister, let me try again: can you name one species that is now safer, then, because of Welsh Government intervention, and given that one of the strategic goals of COP26 in November is to adapt to protect communities and natural habitats by protecting and restoring ecosystems, can you confirm that your Government will now come forward with an urgent strategy before then to address Wales's nature crisis?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:49, 5 October 2021

Llywydd, I agree that biodiversity loss in Wales is a very serious matter and that there is more that has to be done in order to use the opportunity we have while we still have it. I think one of the most striking things that I read in that RSPB report was that, if we lose the moment that we have, some of that biodiversity loss may well become irreplaceable. It's why the Government in the budget immediately before the coronavirus crisis mobilised £130 million-worth of investment in biodiversity loss and the recovery of habitats. The local places for nature scheme that we have means that biodiversity can be a matter not just for large-scale schemes, but for very small actions that can be taken, even in densely populated urban areas, where those local actions can help to repair the loss that we have seen and to give people confidence that collective action, in which they can play their part, can yet help us to repair the damage that has been done. 

I don't accept that Wales is behind what is happening elsewhere in this regard. We have some powerful schemes in place with some funding that we've been able to find behind them. And now we have to take seriously the fact that, unless we are prepared to act while we have the opportunity, that opportunity may no longer exist. 

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:50, 5 October 2021

(Translated)

The Leader of Plaid Cymru, Adam Price. 

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru

Diolch, Llywydd. First Minister, members of all four of the largest NHS unions have now voted to reject your Government's pay offer of 3 per cent; the Royal College of Nursing in Wales doing so by a massive 94 per cent. Will you now agree to their request for formal pay negotiations?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:51, 5 October 2021

Well, Llywydd, the Welsh Government continues in negotiations with the major trade unions in Wales on the pay offer. The RCN has chosen not to participate in those ongoing discussions. I would urge them to come back around the table, because it is only by discussion that we will be able to find a resolution. 

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru

Well, I have to say to the First Minister that I spoke to the RCN this morning, and the position that you've outlined I think does not give the real picture—as they see it, certainly—because what they've said is they wanted to talk to the Government about an across-the-board pay increase and you've refused to engage with them on that. You're not convening the pay negotiating committee of the NHS partnership forum, and yet you're supposed to be the Government of social partnership. Why aren't you practicing it?

Now, the reason this is important and urgent is, as we know, inflation as measured by the consumer prices index is currently running at 3.2 per cent—4.8 per cent if you use the retail price index. It's set to increase even further. Do you accept the view of the unions—all of the unions—and, indeed, even the leader of the British Labour Party, that a pay rise offer of 3 per cent now represents a real-terms pay cut? Wouldn't this, in the wake of the heroic sacrifice over the last 18 months, be a kick in the teeth for thousands of healthcare workers?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour 1:52, 5 October 2021

Well, Llywydd, let me just make sure that Members are aware of the history of all of this. The Welsh Government, often at the urging of the trade union movement, committed ourselves to the independent pay review process. We made representations to it. It reported, and it recommended a 3 per cent pay increase, which the Welsh Government decided to honour. In order to fund that 3 per cent pay increase, we have a 1 per cent uplift from the UK Government. So, the other 2 per cent we are having to find from within the resources that are available to us for purposes other than pay. Every 1 per cent that the pay bill in the NHS rises costs £50 million. So, the Welsh Government is finding, from resources that were not sent to us for pay purposes, £100 million in order to make sure that we met the recommendations of the pay review body. Do I think that that is enough? No, I don't. Do I think the Welsh Government can go on finding dollops of £50 million in order to increase the pay award above and beyond what we are funded to do? The answer to that is 'no' as well.

And Llywydd, let me be clear, so that Members are in no doubt about it: we continue to be in discussions with the trade unions. I met them myself; the health Minister is meeting them this week. We are talking about a package of measures that we might be able to put together. Those discussions are not easy, I can tell you, because the trade unions, quite rightly, argue very strongly on behalf of their members. But you can't reach a resolution if you're not prepared to come to the table and have those discussions. The RCN is not at that table. I wish they were.  

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru 1:54, 5 October 2021

But they're not at the table because you've ruled out discussing with them an across-the-board pay increase. Now, most NHS workers—for most of them, the 3 per cent rise has already been more than cancelled by an increase in pension contributions. The new health and social care levy next year will wipe out almost half of next year's rise, and that's even before you consider the cost of living crisis and the erosion of pay over the last 11 years. Now, research—[Interruption.] Incredible that I'm being heckled by Labour Members when I'm making the case for NHS workers. Research last year suggested that a third of nurses are considering leaving the NHS, with the majority citing pay. 

Photo of Adam Price Adam Price Plaid Cymru

There are already 1,600 vacancies in the NHS in Wales. After the year that they've had, how will a 3 per cent pay increase convince those that remain to stay when even a Labour Government imposes a below-inflation pay award on nurses? Can you really blame them when NHS staff feel let down, undervalued and ignored?

Photo of Mark Drakeford Mark Drakeford Labour

Well, Llywydd, I don't disagree with many of the points the Member made at the start of what he had to say. What he has to face up to is: where will that money come from? I see a list of questions on the order paper today, many from Members of his own group, who will no doubt be urging me to spend more money on different aspects of the health service—more money. Yet, if I was to follow his advice, we would have less money to do the things that they would ask us to do, because there is a fixed sum of money available, and, if more of it goes into pay, there is less of it to provide a service. That is a very difficult balance to strike; we have struck it by finding £100 million to honour the recommendations of the pay review body. We remain in discussion with the bulk of the trade unions who are prepared to come around the table and continue those discussions.

If I was to take the simplistic advice that I have been offered, magic money out of the air to pay people—who I want to pay, and I agree with what the Member said, that they deserve more, but that money has to be found from somewhere and it could only be found from doing even less to provide the services that his Members will, I know, and quite rightly, be urging me this afternoon that we should be doing more to support.

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