Item 6, a legislative consent motion on the Professional Qualifications Bill. I call on the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language to move the motion—Jeremy Miles.

Motion NDM7787 Lesley Griffiths

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 29.6, agrees that provisions in the Professional Qualifications Bill in so far as they fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd, should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Motion moved.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I welcome this opportunity to explain the background of this LCM, and to explain why I suggest that the Senedd should not agree to this LCM. I'm grateful to the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee for considering the legislative consent memorandum and for producing a report, and I have responded to the questions raised within it. I'm also grateful to the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee for their consideration and their report. The committee has made a number of suggestions, and I will respond to them in the near future, but I can confirm today that I will accept all of the committee's recommendations, and, where the committee asks for further information, I will seek to provide orally that information before writing to the committee. In particular, I note the conclusion in the report, which corresponds to my concern about concurrent powers contained within the Bill. I urge the UK Government for amendments to the Bill, but, until we're given the assurances that we are seeking, I can't change my recommendation on this Bill. I can also confirm that we are still awaiting guidance on definitions, which is one of the issues raised by the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee.  

As you're aware, my advice to the Senedd is that we should not give approval to the Bill in its current form. The Bill was developed at speed by the UK Government, and the majority of this activity took place during our pre-election period, which prevented Ministers from engaging in the development of the Bill. This rapidly turned the development of a non-legislative common framework, which is our preferred option to manage mutual recognition of professional qualifications, into a Professional Qualifications Bill rushed forward into the House of Lords with little opportunity for Welsh Ministers to comment. I do see that clause 5 arguably is necessary as a helpful way of modifying legislation consequent on EU departure, but the process left little time for regulatory bodies, including the Education Workforce Council and Social Care Wales, to properly consider the implications of the Bill on their regulatory functions. The passage of the Bill so far in the House of Lords has also indicated that many other regulatory bodies across the UK have concerns about the Bill and the impact it will have on their autonomy and existing arrangements to facilitate recognition of qualifications.

However, my main concern with this Bill is the inclusion of concurrent powers. These powers have been written into the legislation with no meaningful explanation from the UK Government as to why they're necessary in the area of regulated professions, leading, I'm afraid to say, to the conclusion that this is another move by the UK Government to act in areas that are clearly devolved. In view of the type of concurrent powers included in the Bill, as well as the speed at which the Bill has been developed by the UK Government, an early debate has been brought to the Senedd to clearly set out our position against any attempt by the UK Government to threaten the devolution settlement. Our starting point is that concurrent functions should not be created. However, if the UK Government is determined, as it may well be in this case, to create them, then at the very least we would expect a consent provision. It is the Welsh Government's conclusion that provisions 1 to 10 and 12 to 19 in the Bill fall within the legislative competence of the Senedd. The Bill cannot be allowed to progress as it currently stands. We must see the amendments that we have sought. I therefore move the motion, and I urge all Members of the Senedd to reject the motion and deny the Bill our consent.

I call on the Chair of the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee, Paul Davies.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. As you said, I rise to contribute as Chair of the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee.

Now, the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee did consider this memorandum on 16 September 2021, with a reporting deadline of last Thursday. I note that the report of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee on this memorandum has made nine recommendations to the Welsh Government on matters relating to powers and scope—of course, our committee's work and scrutiny was confined to matters of policy alone.

Now, in our report, we did ask the Minister for Education and Welsh Language to provide further information to all Members in advance of today’s debate. Given the time restraints, we also, as the Minister said, wrote to him last Tuesday to draw his attention to this request. In particular, we asked for an assessment of the impact of the Bill on regulated professions in Wales; we asked for an outline of the impact on regulated professional qualifications in Wales for the purposes of ascertaining demand levels for certain professions; we asked for an update on discussions with the UK Government on its request for clarification of the scope of the Bill and its application to certain sectors, such as further education; we also asked for details of any discussions with the UK Government regarding any amendments to the Bill that Welsh Government has requested; we asked for an update on discussions the Welsh Government has had with affected regulators in Wales, including public sector organisations; and we also asked for a description of the relationship to, and combined effect of, the Bill with other relevant UK arrangements, such as the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020, the new immigration system and future international agreements.

Now, the committee’s report stated that in advance of that information being provided, we were not in a position to make a recommendation to the Senedd as to whether or not to approve the legislative consent motion before us today. I can confirm that the Minister has sent me a response to the points that we made as a committee, and I thank the Minister for providing that response in a letter received yesterday afternoon. This information has been circulated to committee members, but as Members will acknowledge, we haven't had time to consider the information provided by the Minister to formulate a response as a committee. So, even though I'm grateful to the Minister for providing that additional information to the committee, considering the fact that we haven't had an opportunity to consider the information as a committee, we're not yet in a situation to reject or approve this LCM before us today. Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd.

I call on the Chair of the Legislation, Justice and Constitution Committee, Huw Irranca-Davies. 

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Last week, I spoke to our committee’s report during the debate on whether this Senedd should give consent to the Environment Bill. This week, we’re discussing consent for the Professional Qualifications Bill, and with your invitation, Dirprwy Lywydd and also the Llywydd, you will likely see me on quite a regular basis given the number of legislative consent memoranda that we, and the Senedd as a whole, are considering at the moment.

In our report on the Welsh Government’s consent memorandum for the Professional Qualifications Bill, we have identified trends that are, unfortunately, already emerging quite early within this Senedd, and we've made nine recommendations to the Minister, and our report also sets out a number of conclusions to reflect our overall consideration of the consent memorandum for the Bill.

The Minister, unfortunately, was unable to formally respond to our report in advance this afternoon. It's probably a rare, if not unique, situation, which causes some obvious issues for scrutiny, although we appreciate the Minister's apology based on the timescale, and some of this is the pressures of the timescale the other end as well. The Minister has made clear, however, that the Welsh Government will be, we understand, accepting all the recommendations in the report, and we hope in full, of course, and he highlighted in his remarks today, in particular, concerns over concurrent powers in the Bill, which we draw attention to as well. 

So, let me go through some of the areas we are concerned about. As with the Environment Bill, the Professional Qualifications Bill also contains those concurrent powers, exercisable by the Secretary of State in Wales on devolved matters. While we acknowledge that the Minister is seeking changes to the Bill to address the Welsh Government's concerns with these powers, we're not sure that the Minister's solution offers a role for the Senedd at this moment. So, we question why the Senedd is not only being denied a role in directly affecting the detail of primary legislation on a devolved matter that will take effect in Wales, but also then having no role in scrutinising the secondary legislation that will also become law in Wales. So, we consider this to be constitutionally improper.

And there is a wider issue, broader than this consent decision before us today. This is the second of 14 UK Bills that are currently the subject of Welsh Government legislative consent memoranda, and I gently remind the Welsh Government collectively and Senedd Members to consider the cumulative effect. Scrutiny of all these memoranda laid before the Senedd, whilst a heavy task, places my committee in a prime position to monitor closely the overall impact of the UK Parliament legislating on behalf of the Senedd, whether consent is given or not. And I respectfully lay that marker down today for the Welsh Government and for the UK Government.

Our report also draws attention to other matters of important constitutional significance. The combination of concurrent functions and Henry VIII powers in the Bill means that the Secretary of State or the Lord Chancellor could potentially exercise their regulation-making powers to amend Senedd Acts and regulations made by the Welsh Ministers. We do not consider this to be acceptable.

Furthermore, there is nothing in the Bill that will prevent the UK Government, whichever colour that UK Government is, from making regulations that amend the Government of Wales Act 2006, our principal devolution statute. As a matter of basic constitutional principle, the legislative competence of the Senedd should not be modified by regulations made by UK Ministers, Dirprwy Lywydd. The Bill also contains a power that effectively imports restrictions set out in the 2006 Act relevant to the making of primary legislation by this Senedd into the regulation-making process of the Welsh Ministers. Now, we would say that this is an unusual and an unwelcome power. That there is a disagreement between the Welsh and UK Governments about which provisions in the Bill relate to devolved matters, and that the scope of the Bill more generally is yet to be clarified, is also concerning.

As my final comment, I will highlight that our consideration of the memorandum has provided an example of the complexities of the post-EU-exit era. The implementation of the Bill, if and once enacted, allows the introduction of multiple domestic and international arrangements as a result, directly, of the UK's exit from the EU. To give some examples, the Bill's provisions intertwine with common frameworks and international treaties, and they operate alongside the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 and the UK's new immigration system. And this isn't a political statement; it's a factual statement. So, we would argue:

It is vital that the Senedd pays close attention to their combined impact and can continue to play a full part in safeguarding Wales's best interests in the face of these new arrangements. Thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd.

We would like to welcome the introduction of the UK Government's Professional Qualifications Bill, which will ease the transition for professionally qualified citizens of the EU to have their qualifications recognised and allow them to work in the UK. These proposals will make it easier for professionals and businesses to navigate the UK's regulatory landscape by simplifying the process. The Bill will give devolved administrations the power to equip their regulators with the ability to enter into arrangements with international partners. It will allow the new laws to help meet the demands of individual professions across the country. These proposals will create a joined-up approach to the rules relating to the recognition of professional qualifications and ensure that the UK has continued access to the best and brightest talent from across the world, which will help to address the skills gap we are facing in Wales. We note that Welsh Government have been in discussions with the UK Government and we also note their concerns, but at this juncture I would urge the Welsh Government and other Members to support this motion today.

Thank you very much to both committees for your thorough work in looking at all of these issues. The work carried out by your committee, not only with this Bill but all of the legislation that is coming towards us very quickly, is so crucially important. We cannot allow these issues to go beneath the radar. It's crucial that they are carefully scrutinised and I can see that you are doing that.

It is a fundamental constitutional principle that the legislative competence of this Senedd should not be reformed via regulations made by UK Government Ministers. The Professional Qualifications Bill does provide powers to the Secretary of State or the Lord Chancellor to make regulations that  do amend this Senedd's legislation. There are powers in the Bill that could amend the Government of Wales Act 2006 also. And therefore, for those reasons, we will be voting against this LCM and I hope that everyone else will also vote against and will recognise the constitutional dangers that come as a result of it.

I'm very pleased to hear that the Welsh Government has also been convinced that the majority of the measures contained within the Bill are needed, and the Government is of the opinion that the concurrent powers contained within the Bill do undermine the long-established powers of this Senedd and Welsh Ministers to regulate in relation to issues that are within devolved competence. Welsh Ministers and devolved regulators already have the necessary powers to implement the current and proposed policies and regulations contained within those devolved competencies, including powers to recognise all foreign qualifications on a case-by-case basis.

We, like the Government, are concerned about the scope of the Bill, and are uncertain as to whether further education is included within it. So, on the basis of what we've heard and because of our grave concerns and the risk to the constitutional principle at stake here, I urge you all to vote against, and I look forward to seeing that vote take place this afternoon.

Just a brief contribution on this. I agree entirely with the Minister and I'm very grateful to you for what you've said.

I am disappointed but not surprised to hear of the UK Government's failure to yet again—yet again—engage with Welsh Ministers on a matter that is clearly devolved to us here in Wales. The rushing of this Bill through the House of Commons is typical of the UK Government's contempt for the devolved nations.

Wales is embarking on the largest set of educational reform since the second world war and it's so important that future qualifications arrangements across the UK reflect our distinct and unique approach to education here in Wales. This Bill has the potential to undermine Welsh regulators and key sectors of our economy and we should not support this. Thank you. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

I call on the Minister for Education and the Welsh Language to reply.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. May I thank all contributors to the debate today and acknowledge what Paul Davies said about the committee's work, and thank him and the committee for their work on this?

Can I also thank Huw Irranca-Davies and the committee for their work, as I mentioned at the start, and for his forbearance about the question about replying to the recommendations in the report? I can assure him that we will be accepting the recommendations in full. Partly, it's a question of timing, which illuminates the larger picture, which I know his committee has been concerned about in their report.

The judgment we've made as a Government here is to bring forward an early debate so that the voice of the Senedd can be loudly heard and gives it the best chance of being taken into account. I do hope that the UK Government will take into account the strength of feeling that's been described today by, I think, all speakers apart from one. And I just would say to Laura Anne Jones that this isn't a debate about whether we think qualifications should be recognised or that things should be conducted on an orderly, co-operative basis across the UK; it's about where those powers rest and whether the UK Government respects the devolution boundary and the devolution settlement. That's what's at the heart of today's discussion, not the belief that we should not be recognising international qualifications. Those powers already exist; they exist here.

I just want to echo one point that Huw Irranca-Davies made about the aggregate effect here. I do think it's very important to see the big picture, because we can discern very troubling trends in the way that he described. The legislative consent memoranda echoes, I think, a number of the points that Members have made today. We do see here, in addition to the concurrent powers question that I mentioned at the beginning, the Henry VIII powers, and the combined effect of those together with concurrent powers is really a very pernicious incursion, I think, into the devolution settlement, and I hope that Members will reflect on that in the debate today and vote to withhold consent.

The Llywydd took the Chair.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, I think that was an objection there, so we will defer voting on the motion until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

I'm going to suggest that we take a short break now, just whilst we wait for a few Members to return to the Siambr for the next item. So, we'll take a short break.

Plenary was suspended at 16:29.

The Senedd reconvened at 16:32, with the Llywydd in the Chair.